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Home My WebLink AboutRe: roof shakes/inspections .1 I � SCHERER ?�r- ' , BROTHERS � �� LUMBER � r! � ' � COMPANY � Q � � � � � � 3 /� � � � � NINTH AVENUE N.E.&MISSISSIPPI RIVER �) � �� MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA 55413 � � PHONE 379-9633 ��, �� J� �� , October 20, 1983 , �� A I� 1� State Bui3�din Code Office � � �-�. � 2n��7 3 l ��LS� I.� !JV � Attn: Norm Osterby a a . �08 Metro Square Bui�din3 �u� T'�� 7th & Robert �� ° St. Paul, MN 55103. �; � ��T 2 � �g� �� ....,C I Y O F 0'�y�,t�._._....a..,_,.,._.....� Dear Sir, I am writin3 to officialiy comp�ain about the way Tom Jacobs of Orono and Loren Kohnen of Metro West Inspection Services inspect and approve shakes. Before explainin� the nature of my unhappiness more ful�y I want to emphasize that I am not questionin� the a�nte�rity of either of these 3entlemen or their abilities as inspectors and aiso that I hve told both of them I wou�d be voicin� a complaint. Our company sel�s about 200 sq. of handsp�its per month. Everythin� we buy carries the Red Cedar shake and shin3ie bureau label. Over the last two years our company, Scherer Bros. Lumber Co. , has had six jobs questioned or rejected for not meetin� the �radin� rules of the bureau. In four of these cases Loren Kohnen was the inspector and in two cases Tom Jacobs was the inspector but he had sou�ht Lorens advice. The foilowin3 peop�e who also se�L shakes a�so experienced this prob�em on�y with these same inspectors and have also allowed me to inc�ude their names and phone numbers for your convenience if you choose to question them: Bi3��. Thomford (Lyman Lumber) �7�-084� Steve Weekes (Weekes Cedar) 723.-8585 Bob Owens (Mid-America Cedar) �25-0125 The International Conference o�' Bui�din� Officia�s reco�- nizes the Red Cedar Shin3ie and Handspiit Shake Bureau and its �radin� ru�es as a preferred and approved a�ency. Present�y many of these 3radin3 rules are bein� chan�ed and reevaluated. Perhaps some miiis have jumped the 3un in producin3 shakes under what they perceive wiil be the new . � �radin� rules. � � �- . Telephone 473-7357 �� C ITY of �RONO ,, Yost OfCice Box 66•Crystal Bay, Minnesota 55323•Municipal Offices � On the Nort{z Shore of Lake Min.netonka s - � • October 27, 1983 State Building Code Division Attn: Dick Brooks 408 Metro Square Building Robert & Seventh Streets St. Paul, Minnesota 55101 Re : Inspection & rejection of wood shakes at 3020 North Shore Drive - Orono, Mn. Dear Mr. Brooks : I am writing in reply to the complaint issued against Loren Kohnen, Metro West Inspection Services, Inc. and Tom Jacobs, City of Orono. An inspection was conducted at 3020 North Shore Drive on October 18 , 1983 , where reroofing of the main house and garage were being done with wood shakes. The first inspection was conducted by myself. I could not get up on thc house so I only looked at the wood shakes on the garage. I found that most of the shakes stacked on the garaq� were only 23" long and had feathertips, which made the shakes even shorter. This observation was made without opening any bundles. A�. this time, I felt that the shakes did not meet the Uniform Building Code standards 32-8 , but decided that I would get Loren Kohnen to look at them for a second opinion. At about 3 :00 P.M. , Loren Kohnen and myself inet the contractor, Eric Kallerup at the site . We started with the shakes on the garage by opening two bundles and visually inspecting the shakes on the outside of the remaining bundles; then we went up on the roof of the house and checked the bundles of shakes. We, again, opened two bundles� and visually inspected the outsides of the remaining bundles. The inspection revealed the following: 1. 24 " wood shakes were to be used. A lot of them were only 23" lona UBC standard 32-8 allows a minus tolerance of 1/2 inch � • .. Dick Brooks, State Building Code Division October 27, 1983 Page 2 2. Feathertips - Could be seen in all bundles. On the 23" shakes no feathertips would b� allowed. On the 24" full length, 1" is allowed. Feathertips did exceed the 1°` allowed 3. Blow outs (holes in shingles) were found in every bundle looked at 4 . Sapwood - was over 1/8" permitted on edges. Some exceeded 2-3" This was found in almost all of the bundles 5. Flat grain exceeded the lOg allowed and was found in almost all of the bundles 6 . Thin edges - approximately 7� of each bundle inspected It was determined with the above findings that the shakes were adjudged off-grade because the total lineal inches of defective shakes exceeded 7� of the total lineal inches. Thus, the wood shakes were rejected. If you have any questions on the matter, please feel free to contact me at my office, 473-7357. Sincerely, , ��-� �� , Tom Jacobs Building Official cc : Walter Benson, City Administrator Jeanne Mabusth, Zoning Administrator Loren Kohnen, Metro West Inspection Services, Inc. Mike Scherer, Scherer Brother Lumber � :E �,.. SCHfRER BROTHERS LUMBER COMPANY i L5�L5� V15 NINTH AVENUE N.E.&MISSISSIPPI RIVER MINNEAPOLIS,MINNESOTA 55413 � PHONE 379-9633 ; �I�u - 3 �� :; � '�j,� r : CITY OF �;��:,`_.w� October 3�, 1983 State Buildin� Code Division Attn: Dick Brooks �08 Metro Square Bui�din� Robert & Seventh Streets St. Pau�, MN 55103. .:; . Dear Mr. Brooks, In my ori3ina2 letter expressin� unhappiness with Tom Jacobs and Loren Kohnen I rote to Mr. Ostby, hawever, since Tom �esponded to you I wi�l assume the correspondence shou3.d continue with you. When the job at 3020 North Shore Drive in Orono was ready for medium shakes I was out of stock so I bou�ht some from a loca� distribution yard. Foolish.�y I did not check the mill. manufacturer or this wholde incident wouid never have happened. When Tom Jacobs refused to accept the shakes because they did not meet the 3radin� rules I was frustrated and an�ry. Rather than directin� those emotions toward the supplier, ; manufacturer, or �radin� bureau I snapped at those who had made me aware of my stupidity, those bein� Tom & Loren. I was dead wron� as Tom's letter so succinct�y pointed out and for that I offer my appolo3ies . I w�sh to reemphasize that neither Tom or Loren 's abi2ities or inte3rities as inspectors or as individuais shou�d be questioned. I hi�hiy respect both individua�s and on�y hope _.__�_. they can accept my apo�o�y. If. others have su3�ested tq you that either of these 3ent�emen are pushin� onky one supp�ier or one manufacturer of shakes and shin3�es pay no attention. I 'm tota�Zy confident that i�� s not true and stake my reputation to that. ; i�� r '��. r �•.F:". �� "Y.•; . ... � � . Q ` , . � .. � � � . � � . � `� .. . . . .-.ie�'."ry.Y � ^�� -2- ,. ' , Tom's letter detaiiin� what was wron� with the shakes is exactly' what is needed. I have forwarded that letter to the Shake and Shin3ie Bureau. I fu�ly intended to apply so much heat to the Shake and Shin3le Bureau to either move from their present position or �et burned. I am afraid the bureau is not insistin� that the 3radin� rules are adhered to closely for fear of losin3 members and the revenue included in that membership. . The Shake and Shin�ie Bureau needs to hear direct�.y from inspectors like Tom & Loren alon3 with your office lettin3 . them know Minnesota wi�� not accegt off 3rade material. I am aware of the mili that supplied the ori3inal shakes for 3020 North Shore Drive and wouldn 't take them a�ain if they 3ave them to me for nothin� because that is what they are worth. In the past all shake comp�aints have been hand�ed between the mili and wholesaler - retailer and therefore the Bureau �ets no complaints on file and therefore thinks there is no probiem. I hope to chan3e that and wou�d appreciate your help. �,�. I intend to have the inte3rity of our company match that of Tom Jacobs and Loren Kohnen. I am includin� a copy of this letter alon3 with a written apolo�y ta each of these �entle- men. . O�j y ; 6�ea�''��/ , Respectful�.y, �i��i�� ,iG� c ,�-0�'�� ,. �'`� - � r Michael Scherer �� , Vice President Operations �� ` / , p , �,� � � �� ,. � Q �� -s� �-� y`�' �; - �-�-��' + • � , _ �� ' �'� ��i ' ° ".,; . � � ' ' ' . �r� a , . /�`��,�/ State Bui�din3 Code Office -2- October 20, 1983 We �umber dea�ers are not qua�ified inspectors of shakes but neither are buiidin3 inspectors . I wi�� pass on this latest complaint to the Bureau with the mi�l name. It would have more impact if the inspectors would do the same. Likewise, I think it wouid be more productive and sti�� serve consumer interests if an inspector would ask the applicators to watch for certain defects and reject those pieces rather than rejectin� a whole job off hand. It is unfair for us to have to meet arbitrary standards of a couple of individuals and that has become the case in the western suburbs. We don 't understand why shakes that are acceptable elsewhere are not acceptable where these two �ent�emen inspect? Thanks for your time and consideration. A copy of this Zetter has been forwarded to Tom and Loren as well as the Shake Bureau. Sincerely, � i //�� ' ��1� ` Mike Scherer . , . :;::� ��.; ~ . . � -, �` c .`Y v�.F.t .� ... - m I T .} �\� �� '��! .. ` f ��_, s ..y�;��•�- � . =�_._. :� _.�: ;!�:� CA N T O N � ,.. � , � _ ,..._ � October z�, 1983 s ��"r�w��.=:.i �--��-- LUMBER COMPANY ;.. ...,_ ---: ,.,, i � �: � '•-----��'�"'� � �+ S � "Forest Products Specialists Since 1930" : ,� � �? ,S " "'(_....,� -�"�:�- � �``r. ^ ...i. Mr. Nolrm Osterby ; , :;__...� .._._-.;`.. _J Director Buildi�g Code Div'�L#�c�zL..-�-�•;,;�- 408 Metro Squ�re . :^�~t�'w�`'`.`..:.. _______ 3t. Paul, Min�esota 551Q1; ;::�.:��'��"' Dear Mr. Osterby: Canton Lumber Company supplied Federal �.u�qb�r Company with a truckload of 1/2"x24" 4�1 Red Cedar Handspli�/Resawn Shakes fox "'!'hg Harborage" pro3'ect on Lake Minnetonka. As C��r g�qduc� �pat�a�e�r for Canton's, I had the opportunity to work closely with Mr. Loren Kohnq�fl wh�n he qaestioned this prs►siuct's compliance with the building code. This l$�Cer will give�you the co��lu�ions I came to,during and after my dealings with M�. Kohnen, frow the perspective of a wholesaler who has always insisted on total $rade compliance from its sources of supply. 1) At no time in our dealing did Mr. Kohnen show himself to be anything other than a conGexned and impartial professional, interested only in seeing to it that the material supplied met the minimum requirements of the uniform Bu�lding Code. 2) Mr. Kohnen neve� reconnne�ded an'8lternative producer or wholesaler to me, or to Mr. James Betker of Kraus-And�rson, the pro3ect foreman. Since Canton's jealously protects its hard won reputation as a quality supplier of building materials, I was on guard for such a hint. It never came. 3) When the matter was resolved, it shold be noted, Mr. Kohnen approved shakes supplied by the original parties. 4) Mr. Kohnen's knowledge of Cedar shakes is accurate, precise, and reliable . . . exceptional even in an area like the upper Midwest, known for its high caliber of lumber expertise. S) Most importantly, I feel that Mr. Kohnen shold be praised - not harassed - for his efforts� as my subsequent investigations have revealed: a. Unknown to the lumber coamiunity in this area, the substantial majority of Red Cedar Handsplit/Resawn Shakes graded as �1 and sold as 1�1 in Minnesota are in fact significantly below that grade as a result of the automated manufacturing process now prevalent in the producing regions. b. Because it is relatively easy for a producer to "salt" a shipment labeled 4�1 with lower grade shakes, quality conscious Cedar whole- salers in the upper Midwest have been unknowingly supplying shakes out of compliance with the Uniform Building Code provisions. c. Most shake producers, when questioned� will admit that there is a "two-tiered" shake market: areas like Minnesota and the upper 9110-83RD AVE. NORTH MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55445 ' MAIL ADORESS P.O. BOX 9328 MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55440 Toll Free �.g00/652-9788 PHONE 1-612-425-1400 Toll Free �.g00/328-9494 for Minn. Netionwide � _" , �r. Norm Osterby -2- Midwest, that have been umaittingly accepting below code shakes; and areas snch_ as- Californta,, �ahere tiu�lding inspectors with the same integrity and determination as Mr. Kohnen have i�sisted that the industry comply with the Uniform Building Code. d. The reaction of the Red Cedar Shingle and Handsplit Shake Bureau appears to be that excessive amounts of flat grain and/or other below grade characteristics will not hurt a Red Cedar roof. Translated, this can be interpreted to mean that the Association exists to enforce certain standards. but larger producer members have suggested that the Bureau routinely approve shipments that are in fact below grade. As the enclosure from Random Lengths shows, the Bureau has recoma►ended that standards be lowered to allow more flat grain and other characteristics not in compliance with the current code requirements. In other words, Mr. Kohnen is right . . . and� as I have pointed out above, he pursues his concern for compliance with the Uniform Building Code ethically: I will take the liberty of contacting you by phone on Tuesday, November 1, 1983 to discuss this letter and give you the names of other people to contact who will, I am sure, support Mr. Kohnen's position. Sincerely, � _/ _ = r :, , � � � �—__- '/ . -/%�C�'��'� . ;>�'' f , �� j Briari Connors l -- ---- Canton Lumber Conipany BC:sj Enclosure SCHERER jf. _�.�C�C�C��MC�':'1 BROTHERS ��D -,, � LUMBER � � COMPANY �� - I 1983 5t ' ' ,� �� NINTH AVENUE N.E.&MISSISSIPPI RIVER '�Y F O(��d�� MINNEAPOLIS,MINNESOTA 55413 . PHONE 379-9633 � October 28, i983 City of Orono P.O. Box 66 Crysta� Bay, MN 55323 Attn: Tom Jacobs Dear Tom, Many thanks for your �etter detailin� your findin� on the shakes inspected at 3020 North Shore Drive. I took the �iberty of passin� on a copy of your �etter to the Shake and Shin3�.e Bureau as wei� as the who3esa3.e supp�ier to whom the shakes are bein3 returned to. This is the type of information the Bureau needs to fo3.low throu�h on complaints. A3ain, thanks for your dili�ence and thorou�ness. Sincerely, � '�,�,��' _-�Itl�{-.� Mike Scherer . Willie Gibbs From: Chuck Christensen [Chuck@AllstarToday.com] Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 6:36 PM To: Willie Gibbs Subject: Kosloske Roof Follow Up Flag: Follow up Flag Status: Flagged Hello Mr. Gibbs, My name is Chuck. I'm the field manager for Allstar Residential. We met my first week on the job this spring when you expressed your disgust with Allstar's history of not scheduling mid-way inspections. I took your complaints back to the office and we came up with what we thought would be a more fool proof plan to avoid situations like this from happening. The checks and balances were to be administered as follows: 1. Our permit puller, having access to the job start date, is supposed to schedule the mid-way inspection when he pulls the permit. 2. Just in case he forgets,the roofers are supposed to check the permit package upon arrival at the jobsite to see if the inspection card says we need a mid-way inspection and call it in or call me if it does. 3. As a last line of defense, I'm supposed to check when I arrive on the site myself as I usually arrive later in the morning when potential problems will have been exposed. For the most part,this system has been working pretty well. In this case, as the field manager and as the last line of defense, I failed to do my job when I assumed (being a Wayzata mailing address on my work order)that we would not need one. Assumptions in this industry are typically not a good thing. It wasn't until I went to call in the final inspection that I realized we were in Orono's domain. It is my fault completely, and it might cost me my job if we have to replace the whole thing. Several people are very upset with me. I can live with that, but I've been working hard to learn the requirements and to be compliant and would hate for all that work to be in vein. Besides, if I get fired and they get another field manager, you'll have a whole new moron to whip into shape. O I'm appealing to your greater sense of compassion to, perhaps, allow us to tear up shingles in various spots (of your choosing) to show what you wish to see. Even if it's a couple squares, it will be far better than an entire roof. It was a careless mistake, and I apologize sincerely. Please help me if you can! Thank you for your time. Sincerely, Chuck Christensen Chuck Christensen Project Manager 612-210-1653 Allstar Construction i Willie Gibbs From: Chuck Christensen [Chuck@AllstarToday.com] Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:09 PM To: Willie Gibbs Subject: RE: Kosloske Roof Hello again, Thank you for responding. I understand your frustration. In fact, I understood this spring when you explained to me what had been happening. I have heard about the high turnover that Allstar has encountered and the problems it has caused in many respects. I'm hoping/trying to break that cycle. This is my first year in this position, but I like my job and I'm always trying to see ways to improve. I'm sure you don't want to feel like you have to babysit Allstar every time we apply for a permit just like I don't like to have to babysit my crews. I thought this whole time that Denny(our permit puller) had been scheduling mid-way inspections when he pulled permits. The Kosloske job is what brought this to my attention. Regarding the house on 3020 North Shore, I honestly didn't think we needed a mid-way for a flat roof. We only did the flat roof on that house. Sorry about that. I have an idea that may or may not give you more confidence that I can consistently comply. I can give my teammate, Kate (who has been with Allstar for a few years), instructions to have ONLY ME pull permits in Orono so that I can take personal ownership a little easier to ensure all of the necessary inspections get scheduled, and you can take solace in the fact that I can have no more excuses. The burden would solely be mine. Also, if I could get a list of permits that never got final inspections(the ones that can still get final inspections), I can start calling them in and fitting them into my schedule. I have been earning what I believe to be a pretty good reputation with most cities of being very compliant and intend to, at some point, win you over as well. I'm sorry for all of the headaches Allstar has caused, and I understand that you don't want to feel like you're giving Allstar special treatment when other roofers are in compliance. I can not fix the past, but the future's all mine. I would like to work with you to make our professional future together work better than it has in the past. I will do as you wish on the Kosloske roof,without argument. Please just let me know what you decide. Again, I appreciate you listening to what I have to say. Have a great weekend! Sincerely, Chuck Christensen Chuck Christensen Project Manager 612-210-1653 Allstar Construction From: Willie Gibbs [mailto:WGibbs@ci.orono.mn.us] Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 4:57 PM To: 'Chuck@AllstarToday.com' Subject: RE: Kosloske Roof Chuck, I understand your concern. The salesman I met with yesterday also seemed very sincere and concerned. I have been around and around with this issue with so many company reps that I can't keep track anymore. I received a letter dated May 24, 2010 from Peter Carlson as a follow up to a meeting that took place here in my office several days prior. I was assured at that time if I gave them more chance Allstar Construction was"taking the necessary steps to rectify the communication gap that exists here at out office". � I had the permit tech research the permits issued to Allstar since June of 2010. There are 25 permits issued that have not had a final inspection and in almost half the instances, no tearoff inspection either. I can provide a list of the permits if desired. I have now watched for two weeks as the roof at 3020 North Shore Drive has been torn off and redone without one inspection being called for. I no longer know what to do to change company behavior,other than deny your company a final inspection on permitted projects that were not scheduled for a tearoff inspection. As I have told your reps before, all that needs to be done is a tearoff inspection scheduled. If I am unable to make it to the inspection at least there is a record of the request. It is then and only then that pictures may be substituted. I understand that it gets busy at times, but a phone call doesn't seem to be asking for much. I would ask you, what should I do about this continuing problem? I find myself to the point that I will no longer be able to issue your company any further permits. If the other contractors can arrange for inspections, it is only fair to them that Allstar be held to the same standard. Please, let me know your thoughts. I do not like the situation this puts me in. Willie Gibbs From: Chuck Christensen [mailto:ChuckC�AllstarTodax.com] Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 6:36 PM To: Willie Gibbs Subject: Kosloske Roof Hello Mr. Gibbs, My name is Chuck. I'm the field manager for Allstar Residential. We met my first week on the job this spring when you expressed your disgust with Allstar's history of not scheduling mid-way inspections. I took your complaints back to the office and we came up with what we thought would be a more fool proof plan to avoid situations like this from happening. The checks and balances were to be administered as follows: 1. Our permit puller, having access to the job start date, is supposed to schedule the mid-way inspection when he pulls the permit. 2. Just in case he forgets, the roofers are supposed to check the permit package upon arrival at the jobsite to see if the inspection card says we need a mid-way inspection and call it in or call me if it does. 3. As a last line of defense, I'm supposed to check when I arrive on the site myself as I usually arrive later in the morning when potential problems will have been exposed. For the most part, this system has been working pretty well. In this case, as the field manager and as the last line of defense, I failed to do my job when I assumed (being a Wayzata mailing address on my work order)that we would not need one. Assumptions in this industry are typically not a good thing. It wasn't until I went to call in the final inspection that I realized we were in Orono's domain. It is my fault completely, and it might cost me my job if we have to replace the whole thing. Several people are very upset with me. I can live with that, but I've been working hard to learn the requirements and to be compliant and would hate for all that work to be in vein. Besides, if I get fired and they get another field manager, you'll have a whole new moron to whip into shape. O I'm appealing to your greater sense of compassion to, perhaps, allow us to tear up shingles in various spots (of your choosing) to show what you wish to see. Even if it's a couple squares, it will be far better than an entire roof. It was a careless mistake, and I apologize sincerely. Please help me if you can! Thank you for your time. Sincerely, Chuck Christensen Chuck Christensen Project Manager 612-210-1653 z . Willie Gibbs , From: Chuck Christensen [Chuck@AllstarToday.com] Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 3:37 PM To: Willie Gibbs Cc: Justin@AllstarToday.com; kate@allstartoday.com; Troy Subject: Just an update Hey Mr. Gibbs, Thought I would let you know that I had a meeting this morning with Kate (my Production Manager) and Denny(our permit puller). We re-iterated the fact that he needs to schedule mid-way inspections anywhere it's required when he goes to pull the permit using the start date info. he has access to (apparently he was confused about his role in this and the importance thereof). We set up a tab in our Centerbase system for him to click on when he enters permit information that will alert me if there has been a mid-way inspection scheduled/required. That way, if the start date changes, I can notify the city. Third, anytime a job pops up for him that he finds out is in the Orono municipality, he is to forward that job to me and I will take it from there. I want to be personally in charge of doing business in your area within my authority limits (which is Allstar Residential Division). I hope you will take this as a sign of good faith and due diligence on our part and continue to let us do business in your area. Thanks again for your time. I look forward to hearing what you wish me to do at Koslowski's. Thanks again, Chuck Chuck Christensen Project Manager 612-210-1653 Allstar Construction 1