HomeMy WebLinkAboutLA22-000068 (2815 CPR) Ex C Previous MinutesMINUTES OF THE
ORONO CITY COUNCIL MEETING
November 28 2022
6:00 o'clock p.m.
17. LA22-000061—WILLIAM&KATHLEEN WANNER- 1095 FERNDALE ROAD WEST—
2ND EXTENSION OF RESOLUTION NO.7150—RESOLUTION NO.7314
18. HENNEPIN COUNTY FIBER CONNECTION
Crosby moved,Seals seconded,to approve the Consent Agenda as submitted. VOTE: Ayes 5,Nays
0.
Mayor Walsh complimented the Staff, City Attorney,and Union Employees for getting the Union
Contracts finalized.He thanked everyone for their work in finding common ground for the next three
years. He also thanked everyone who donated towards the fireworks displays and holiday lighting
including Orono Dental Care,Lunds and Byerlys,North Mallow, Orono Lion's,Holiday Circle K,
Culvers, Orono Parks Legacy Fund, Paul Kovista,Kottemann Orthodontics, Otten Brothers,Pfeffer's
Meats, Westonka Animal Hospital, Orono School District,Bob and Lisa Erickson,Denny and Amanda
Walsh,and Ben and Heather Goodwin. The holiday event starts at 5:00 p.m. at the Orono Golf Course on
Saturday,December 3,2022.
FINANCE DIRECTOR REPORT
Finance Director Olson noted it is a busy time for the Finance Department in preparation for adopting the
final budget and tax levy.
COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT REPORT
19. 2815 CASCO POINT ROAD,VALDES O/B/O LISA THOSTENSEN,EMERGENCY
SLOPE REPAIR—RESOLUTION NO. 7315
Josh Prust, on behalf of Joe Valdes,Applicant,was present.
Staff presented a summary packet of information. City Planner Curtis stated in July the property's walls,
deck,and stairs to the lake were destroyed by fire. The owner submitted a building permit application to
repair the walls in-kind; during installation of the walls, Staff noted the construction had extended beyond
the in-kind footprint and work was stopped.The contractor was directed to stop and stabilize the area.
The owner is requesting additional permission to install an additional wall at the top of the slope. The
Applicant's engineer has determined this to be necessary to protect the integrity of the slope over winter.
The Applicant will submit an after-the-fact variance application to address the wall footprint expansions
in the lakeyard setback. Until that time,the engineer has provided documentation showing the slope
failure is imminent and needs an emergency correction. Curtis noted the City's Engineer reviewed the
documentation and recommends the City Council authorize the emergency repair to stabilize the slope.
Staff recommends approval of the Resolution to allow the contractor to proceed with the emergency slope
failure repair as designed.
Mayor Walsh received a call from a neighbor and he was shocked when he went to the property at the
amount of digging that took place on the hill. He noted they dug out the entire hillside on both sides and
he is trying to understand how that happened.
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November 28 2022
6:00 o'clock p.m.
Josh Prust, Valdes Lawn Care and Snow Removal, is present on behalf of Joe Valdes who constructed the
walls and removed the soil.Mr.Prust is new to the project as of a couple weeks ago when Mr.Valdes
asked him to figure out how the project got to that point. Mr. Prust's understanding is that as permitted
work to the walls was being done,Mr. Valdes realized the ends of the walls were not long enough to
retain the hillside.Mr.Valdes was afraid if the walls were left in that state,the bluff would erode and
eventually end up in the lake.Mr.Prust noted Mr. Valdes made some choices and understands his fault in
expanding the walls beyond what was permitted; he was trying to do what was best in his mind to keep
the hillside in place.
Mayor Walsh stated they brought in a massive digging machine and dug out way beyond what would be
necessary. He noted the decision now is whether to give forgiveness which is not a good precedent, or to
figure out how to put the hill back together.
Johnson noted it makes sense to stabilize it for the winter,but he also has some legal questions. The idea
behind emergency slope repair is that one does not create the emergency.
Paul Schimnowski, Criterium-Schimnowski Engineers, 161 Dunbar Way,Mahtomedi,was asked to
provide a design for the replacement walls. He noted the City's concerns are valid in how much they saw
being moved. When the original walls were built,that kind of dirt would have been moved at that time, as
well due to the tiebacks needing to be dug out and reinstalled.He understands that the request right now is
the emergency work and there is no guarantee that an after-the-fact variance may be approved.He wants
to be sure what is there is stable and will get them to spring without any more erosion or slope failure.
Mayor Walsh wants to be clear if this is approved,a stop-work order is on everything else on the slope.
Mr.Prust agreed.
Mayor Walsh noted there are legal issues needed down the road to solve this. It is a complicated problem
that was not created by the City but by the Applicant.
Johnson asked if the engineer's investigation includes the neighbor's properties and whether their slopes
could now be impacted by the work.
Mr. Schimnowski replied immediately following the emergency work a full topographic survey will be
performed beyond the property line to the adjacent properties to make sure any impacts on adjacent
properties are mitigated.
Johnson clarified the emergency repair includes neighboring properties as it relates to the work done on
the Applicant property.
Mr. Schimnowski replied in the affirmative. They will be shoring up their land.
Johnson wants it on the record that they are also responsible for assessing impacted areas because the
project grew.He clarified the neighbors have done nothing wrong.
Charles Price,2813 Casco Point Road,noted it seems that they do need the emergency slope repair to
keep the slope from failing over winter.He clarified that this does not approve the Applicant to leave it
as-built.
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November 28 2022
6:00 o'clock p.m.
Mayor Walsh replied in the affirmative.It would be approved with that they cannot do any other work
besides the temporary fix and will need to apply for a variance for the additional work that has been done.
Seals asked if the Prices have noticed any issues on their property.
Mr. Price replied it is tough because they were on the bluff trying to put the fire out but it was too
massive. They were trying to keep their oak trees alive,which hold up the bluff. When he had a survey
done,the top of the bluff is 42 feet elevation higher than the lake. In looking at the work that has been
done,Mr.Price noted a massive amount of dirt has gone away,much more than has gone back in. He
thinks it is probably 25-30 feet further away from the lake than it was before.
Carol Price noted it is worrisome that the bluff has been pushed back and their property is vulnerable
now. They are worried,and while they think the work done has been good construction,Ms.Price does
not think they did it in the correct way to preserve what was there.It was definitely not like kind.
Johnson moved,Crosby seconded,to approve Resolution 7315,2815 Casco Point Road,Emergency
Slope Repair with conditions that no additional work be done and the Applicant must come back to
apply for appropriate variances.VOTE: Ayes 5,Nays 0.
CITY ATTORNEY REPORT
There was nothing to report.
CITY ADMINISTRATOR/ENGINEER REPORT
Edwards updated the City Council,noting with the freeze/thaw cycle the City had two water main breaks
in the system near Casco Point and at the High School.Both should be fixed this evening.
PUBLIC COMMENTS
Brad Erickson, 2485 Independence Road,stated these are the events tying Mayor Walsh and Mr. Crosby
to right-wing extremism, seditious conspiracy,conspirators,the Proud Boys, and ultimately the Capitol
riots. On November 10, 2019,Mayor Walsh sent Mr.Erickson the first vulgar campaign video on
Facebook talking about Dems having"one hand in your pocket and the other in your ass."It also said
Dems are"f-ing crazy."On July 14,Mayor Walsh sent a second video on Facebook comparing the
extermination of six million Jews to mask mandates and then threatening it can happen here in America.
On November 21,2020 Mr. Crosby, on video and in tactical gear, attended a protest outside Governor
Walz's mansion which was also attended by the Minnesota Proud Boys. On November 28,Mr. Crosby,
on video and in tactical gear, attended another protest outside the Governor's mansion,also attended by
the Proud Boys and features Clay Nielson which is likely where they met for the first time. On December
5,2020 Mr. Crosby, on video and in tactical gear, attended a protest outside the Governor's mansion
where violence erupts, arrests are made,Mr. Crosby is interviewed spewing election conspiracy theory.
On December 14,2020 Mr. Crosby turns to crowdfunding for member Clay Nielson who was injured in
Washington D.C.while assaulting a black man. On January 6,2021 Mr. Crosby and a traveling
companion went to Washington D.C.to take part in the protests on the Capitol steps and were said to
have been bragging about it at the Long Lake Fire Station upon their return.On January 11,2022 Mr.
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MINUTES OF THE
ORONO PLANNING COMMISSION
February 21,2023
6:00 o'clock p.m.
ROLL CALL
The Orono Planning Commission met on the above-mentioned date with the following members present:
Chair Mark McCutcheon, Commissioners Scott Kirchner, Chris Bollis,Dennis Libby,Bob Erickson.
Commissioners Matt Gettman and Jon Ressler were absent. Representing Staff were Community
Development Director Laura Oakden, City Planner Melanie Curtis, and City Planner Natalie Nye.
Chair McCutcheon called the meeting to order at 6:00 p.m., followed by the Pledge of Allegiance.
APPROVAL OF AGENDA
Kirschner moved,Bollis seconded,to approve the Agenda.VOTE: Ayes 5,Nays 0.
APPROVAL OF PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES OF JANUARY 17,2023
Libby moved,Kirchner seconded,to approve the minutes of the Orono Planning Commission
meeting of January 17,2023.VOTE: Ayes 5,Nays 0.
PUBLIC HEARINGS
1.LA22-000068 VALDES LAWN CARE AND SNOW REMOVAL,LLC,2815 CASCO
POINT ROAD,REQUESTS AN AFTER-THE-FACT 75-FOOT LAKE SETBACK
VARIANCE FOR RETAINING WALLS.
City Planner Curtis reported that in July of 2022,the timber lake slope walls, deck and stairs to the lake at
this address were destroyed by fire. A building permit was issued to reconstruct the walls in-kind. During
the installation of the wall, staff observed that the construction had expanded beyond the "in-kind"
limitations.As a result, a stop-work order was issued. The applicant's engineer provided documentation
showing slope failure was imminent and needed an emergency correction. Because the work was halted
prior to construction, on Nov. 28 the City Council granted approval to install a final wall at the top of the
slope in order to protect the integrity of the slope upon spring thaw. That wall has not been installed. The
applicant is requesting to add 1.7 feet to the top wall that's existing rather than constructing a new
additional wall on the top of the slope,which would better accommodate the final grades and the lake
access stair. All the improvements are within the 75-foot setback from the lake and within the bluff. The
newly-constructed timber walls are situated generally where the previously existing walls were located.
The new walls are not considered an "in-kind"replacement as the footprint of some of the walls extend
closer to the neighboring properties, are in different configurations and are in different locations than the
previously existing walls. The owner is requesting an after-the-fact variance to address the wall footprint
expansions in the bluff and lake yard. A lake stair is permitted within the 75-foot setback and within the
bluff. The deck walkway and shed are not permitted but are able to be reconstructed in-kind. The property
owners can apply for a building permit to rebuild their decks and shed and the stairs as long as the
existing parameters are not exceeded. Because the new walls were installed in a slightly different
placement, size and configuration variances are required. The applicant identified the slope and existing
conditions as practical difficulty supporting the requested variances. They have provided the
documentation with the practical difficulty worksheet in your packets. They are here tonight as well. Staff
finds there are difficulties in the topography and challenges brought on by the fire which may support the
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variances for the expanded retaining walls. Staff supports setback variances for the new wall footprint as
long as the change does not adversely impact neighboring properties and the slope stability on those
properties. The applicant provided a letter from their engineer with an opinion regarding the stability of
the slope on the neighboring properties and it was included in your packet as Exhibit H along with
comments from the public. Staff recommends approval of the setback variances for the wall
improvements as proposed and as they are constructed. Staff does not recommended approval of any
walls which encroach into the neighboring properties, and the applicant should be asked to confirm that
the work was not conducted beyond the property lines. If the applicant needs to construct improvements
on the neighboring properties,they should be providing consent for that work, and we should include that
in the permit. Staff further recommends the vegetative screening of the walls be implemented to screen
the new walls from the lake as much as feasible.
Libby asked if the destroyed walls that had to be removed had been permitted.
Curtis responded there is no record of a permit,but they have existed for quite some time.
McCutcheon asked to clarify if the last retaining wall is yet to be built on the very top.
Curtis explained the upper wall is constructed, but the applicant has decided they don't need to construct
an additional wall. They would like to make that wall 1.7 feet taller to accommodate the grade.
Josh Prust who works for Valdes Lawn Care and Snow and resides at 16016 Hidden Valley Road in
Minnetonka and Joe Valdes of Hastings,MN represented the applicant.
Mr.Valdes explained his company was hired to replace the burned-out retaining walls and stairs. His
recommendation would have been for a boulder wall because of the difficulty with constructing a timber
wall but that would have exceeded the allowed hard cover. Some of the problems included reduced
vegetation because of trees that were burned in the fire and the discovery of rotting timbers behind the
front timber walls. He said they tried to minimize the damage to the bluff and achieve good drainage
behind every single wall so there would not be any erosion going into the lake. He said all this required
more excavation than typical. The slope is too big and there is no way to control the bank as there is no
vegetation. The snow this year will cause the soil to wash out in the spring more than usual. There's
nothing holding the bank anymore. He said they were under a time crunch because it was November. His
workers were digging by hand with pics to avoid damaging existing roots. We have to do anything in our
power to protect the bluff and any vegetation. We had to work from the top to the bottom. We cannot
work from the lake because there is no space to have any machine there. Work was halted in November
and the Planning Commission did not have a December meeting. So I apologize that we did what we did.
There is no way to be able to do this in the kind of winter we are having this year.
McCutcheon asked about the neighbor's retaining walls. This is a big project,I can see that. And when I
look at it, and I see all the neighbors, it's almost like you kind of work together?Because it seems like
every has the same problem. Everybody has a need for this to be successful. He asked Valdes if what he
has built and is proposing will hold.
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Mr. Valdes said he wouldn't want to say 100%but is 90% sure the project will hold the bank.
Mr. Prust added one of the requested items that came from the last meeting they were at was that they
have their engineer do an analysis of the neighboring properties as much as possible and get a survey with
topographical to satisfy that those banks are stable, and they're not going to go anywhere. He said the
neighboring walls in addition still have vegetation on them. So they still have their trees and all their
plants and stuff that didn't get burned up. All that root structure is still helping to hold their slopes up.
Libby asked if the engineering plans articulated that they needed to remove portions of the bluff to
remedy the erosion.
Mr. Valdes said the reason they had to remove soil was to backfill it with drain rock behind the timbers.
The engineering plan called for 18 inches of drain rock behind the timber walls.
Libby said he has worked in a couple of projects like this. So I'm just trying to get a scope of
understanding how you approach this from an engineering and then a positive outcome. If you're
removing portions of the bluff,wouldn't that naturally then increase the pitch of the bluff so that there's
less soil to work with and then you have more of a grade down towards the lake shore?
Mr. Valdes said they were not taking away from the height of the bluff but creating space to backfill with
drain rock.
Chair McCutcheon opened the public hearing at 6:20 p.m.
Patty Yorks, 2825 Casco Point Road, said she had hoped to show photos of what was there previously,
what is there now and what other neighbors have done to mitigate the bluff. I'm also on a bluff, and
everybody else here, another 10 people, are also on this bluff. We all are expressing major,major
concern. It wasn't necessary to do this digging. Everybody along the bluff has done work within your City
ordinances and complied. They've done things by hand. They've been very careful and mindful of all the
vegetation on the on the bluff.And these people just came in and bulldozed everything and removed the
dirt. There was a big road down to the bottom of the bank. It was just an absolute travesty of how they
approached this and little or no regard for the lake or the environment.And we have two engineers that
live right in that notification area that you sent out. They're just amazed at what the City is allowing them
to do, because they do not believe it's built structurally appropriately and engineered appropriately. And,
to my knowledge,the engineer that they have has not signed off on this and standing behind the
engineering. I just am concerned that this is not going to hold and the City is going to have some liability
on this because they're approving something that is not accurate.
McCutcheon said he doesn't pretend to know the history of this project, but obviously you do as a
neighbor. But normally when these things are in construction it has to get ugly before it gets better. In
hearing the applicant explain the process, it sounds like when they were removing the old wall with the
rotted timber that the only solution was to dig it out and fix it.
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Ms. Yorks responded it's a problem that they caused themselves. There were things that had to be
corrected,probably,but not to this extent. She said she had photos which Curtis did not have available.
McCutcheon invited her to pass her phone around the table.
Curtis clarified that the applicant's engineer has approved plans as designed. We don't approve their
engineering,their civil engineer takes the responsibility by stamping the plans.
Ms.Yorks said the work is too egregious.And then after-the-fact,I mean, come on,really?The whole
thing is just egregious. I get that it was an emergency.
McCutcheon said it's one of those things with the construction season, and I'm not trying to make
excuses,but I'm just trying to be logical about it.If you start pulling back layers of the onion and you're
holding that much earth back,you do have to act with a sense of urgency.Was it handled the best way?
Obviously,we would like them to go to City first,which they did. They came in--well, after-the-fact, of
course,but they did try to make it right.
Margaret Martin,2821 Casco Point Road. I sent in this information earlier in an email and it is from a
member of the family who is a civil engineer, a geotech.You have all that information and I won't go
through all of the points,but I will just reiterate a couple of the things that he emphasized.He indicated
that the wall does not appear to be replaced in-kind and therefore should fall under scrutiny of new
construction.It increases impervious surfaces within the buffer, increases discharge to the lake and does
not appear that anything has been done to naturalize the shoreline, and I understand timeframe with
winter etc.,that that can't be addressed immediately. Surface drainage pads have not been identified. Tree
Removal completed prior to plan approval has been discussed. The damage caused by this disturbance
may put neighboring properties at risk in the future and this has been addressed. So again,you have a
printed version and this is from an engineer who is very knowledgeable.But moreover,we need to
consider the fact that that allowing things to go through sets precedents that should not be given in our
City so that people think they can get away with it and do things not according to how they're set up.
These rules were set up by our City and should be complied with.
Commissioners took some time to review the photos that Ms.Worth and Curtis had been able to access.
Tyler Warnke,2147 Valley View Place, St.Paul said he was the equipment operator on the shop. I just
want to reiterate that I went off what the plans were. I've never seen a slope this steep.And in order to get
to the bottom,I had to dig around that. They said it was a road. It did look like a road but I can't reach all
the way down to the bottom to pull out the timbers. So we're pulling up timbers going down as we go.
Some of them are eight feet back and I have to dig those out.I'm not going to leave those in the ground,
because when I construct the new walls,I have to go back. I`ve got to do the tie back. So it's different
than just digging a hole. I've got to put a six foot to eight foot chunk on the back to nail the tie back to,to
hold the wall., so all that has to be dug out. There's different aspects that made that difficult.Up on the top
there's a tree and the neighbors were adamant about leaving the tree. So we worked around that and did
what we could to keep it.And that's why there's a little adjustment over on that side just to keep and not
destroy the roots on that tree. But it's just it's a big job,no doubt about it.A lot of the stuff had to be dug
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back to get those tie backs. The engineer plans came to that step. The neighbor on the west walked me
over to his yard and showed me he had his redone and he had a huge washout.I stand by what we built
and I believe it will hold back that hill.
Kirchner asked if as the equipment operator, did he think this could have been done as handwork instead
of equipment operation?
Mr. Warnke said he thinks it would have been a year-long project. A lot of that stuff was hard back in
there. With the pick axe they spent 10 hours on one little section trying to get the tie backs back so we
didn't take that bluff out on the on the east side up on top. Everything I've seen it's done with heavy
equipment.
Libby asked if he was involved in any other excavations or moving soil there other than directly affecting
the washout and in the wall?
Mr. Warnke said the only removal was to put the walls in and take out the existing walls, because all the
existing walls were burned and had to come out. Then I had to dig the soil back to get the old original tie
backs. The old original tie backs had big concrete, like a pail of concrete,and that was chained. We did
nothing around the house.Everything was on the lakeshore.
Commissioners asked about the extent of the damage caused by the fire. Curtis showed photos taken right
after the fire.
Carol Price, 2813 Casco which is the west side property adjacent to this one. I will agree with everyone
that this has been a mess. The fire is not responsible. It was unfortunate that happened to the owner.
They're just trying to recoup the bluff I agree that the contractor, once he got in there,did see the work
involved and he did try to save the trees. But again,there was a mess of a mound of dirt that was
excavated from the bluff.And all that excavated dirt had to come by our house because we gave them
permission.And so it was very difficult for us. They took away multiple dump trucks of dirt and brought
in the stones to backfill those walls. So I did put in written comments in the packet as I saw it as of
Friday. What is different is I had no idea that the wall construction now has changed from seven walls to
six walls.And now the sixth wall is going to be taller.This is the first I've heard of it.All of my
comments were based on the original design of seven tiered walls. And in late October,a stop order was
issued because they were building this not according to the in-kind plan. It was almost done. They were in
the process of prepping for the seventh wall. So they went to the City Council to express an emergency
request to put in that seventh wall and it was granted in early November.At the time of the stop order,the
contractor very rightly put in erosion burlap,they secured the bluff as it was built,everything was
rounded. They took away all the equipment because they didn't know if this was going to be approved.
The emergency order was based on the engineering request that this wall was in imminent danger of
collapse if they did not finish that seventh tier.And after the permission was given to build the seventh
wall, no one came back. That is my concern now is that bluff, it has the seven tiers.And that seventh wall
isn't there. The Bluff now makes a half bowl; it's not straight anymore. So that half bowl really requires
that seventh wall. The contractor put in the side walls to compensate for the neighbors. Those sidewalls
are needed for this place where the seventh tier is supposed to be.I agree it should be there.If they make
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the claim that this is an imminent need for the bluff, it should have been built.Again,this is the first time
I've heard about the sixth wall just coming up a little bit. I don't know if that's going to keep the
neighbor's property from falling because they have built this round and curve tiering effect. I know there
is a concern about hardcover. But that hardcover came in less than the previous old wall. So there needs
to be some scrutiny here. I don't think we should tear down this wall. I am an engineer. I'm data driven.
I'm detail-oriented. You guys need to see what this looked like. You need to see the photos of how this
was constructed. I saw the construction. I'm there every day. The contractor did a good job. I think he
really reacted to what he saw. And he's trying to do a good job. I just want to make sure that whatever is
approved in the end,this bluff isn't going to fail,I'm not going to be affected. It's nobody's fault that the
bluff burned,but we've got to deal with it.
McCutcheon said seeing the pictures he would be concerned as well but he is also looking at the
challenges that the contractor had. I appreciate all the feedback because it's a drastic change to what the
neighborhood has had. He asked if we are seeing a lot of erosion because the disadvantages of this with
the fire? So you have no root system to establish that integrity and so they're kind of in a bad spot?He
noted people driving by in boats would see nice trees and then nothing but a huge retaining wall system
that doesn't fit the character of the neighborhood. Yet the neighbors think it should be bigger because they
are really concerned about it.
Ms. Price reiterated that she does not have enough information to make a decision at this point. This is too
much of a surprise to me. There is a bluff line there and the neighbors are on the bluff line. The sloping
does vary as you're going from west to east. The actual slope of the whole land of that Peninsula is
flowing downward. The slopes on this end,they're steep. And as you as that landmass gets lower,those
slopes are more gentle. But this particular build did scoop out a hole in that natural line of the bluff. And
part of that scoop out is it's affecting the neighbors. The contractor was stopped before the seventh wall
was almost finished, so that dirt is loose,there's nothing to hold it. I don't think making the sixth wall a
foot taller compensates for what's there now. I'd like to see some plans.
Bollis said he thinks on the engineering report for that additional height on that wall, it shows that the
grade's going to be improved to the top of that wall. So what we're looking at right there, that's the sixth
wall. That would be 1.7 feet higher. And this bowl, I'm assuming would be cut and filled to the top of
that.
Ms. Price said she hasn't seen any of the new updates and would not be in favor of seeing it approved
without the seventh wall. I have no data to make an evaluation. I would just like the board to look at the
data. It looks massive. It's not in character for the rest of the neighbors or Casco Point or the bluffs. When
you backfill those walls, it's back filled and compacted with dirt and stone. How do you get something to
grow in there?You don't,you might get small plants and things,but there won't ever be a tree back there
again, so you've changed it forever.
Charles Price, 2813 Casco Point Road,noted all the pictures have been from the water. The engineer who
designed the walls made it crystal clear,you can't let any water infiltrate these walls up on the top side.
I've never heard a plan for how the water is going to get around this wall,the water that runs across the
lot. That needs to be clarified somewhere. Price also said the exhibits don't correctly represent the old
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bluff line top.He said the bluff has been moved back 22 feet. That's part of the reason why we're in a
variance situation now,I guess, because it wasn't built in accordance with plans. There's a mistake there.I
don't know exactly what the significance of that is.And I actually want to compliment Tyler,Joe,you
guys did a good job on the walls. Good job. They worked hard. Tyler was up here explaining.He worked
with us,he worked with the neighbors on the other side. So I don't necessarily want to have it torn down
and start over.And that's up to you guys to figure out.
The Commissioners, applicants and neighbors continued to review photos and drawings.
Curtis pointed out that the applicant is not asking for approval on these issues. We're going back and forth
about what was there and what what's there now but we know it's not what was there before.
Mr.Valdes said to go eight feet high with the wall,you have to go eight feet back. We have property
lines,we have neighbors.We had tie backs going from the first wall all the way to the second wall. So all
the walls basically want to structure all the way from the bottom to the top of the wall. That way we know
how to approach anybody's property, and we'd be able to save histories. We actually did more work to be
able to make sure that we're stable enough. So if you have one wall, all the way to the top has got to tie
and nail into each other and the whole thing is one structure all the way. This is why that is not right.He
said some of the structure now in place is temporary because the wall is not finished. They addressed the
drainage on the east end by putting in drain tiles in the corner that will drain the whole yard. We have the
pipes ready behind the walls to hook up but the job is not complete.
McCutcheon asked about drainage and the current opinion of the engineer for the project.
Mr. Valdes said water would go to the corner where the fence used to be where there was an old catch
basin and some tires. Those have been removed and everything is now buried. He said this winter there
has been 70 inches of snow. When it melts,the water will go west to east where they have put in a berm.
The water will not go to any neighbor's property. He said the retaining walls are being designed so it will
not have to have a railing.
Chair McCutcheon closed the public hearing at 7:02 p.m.
McCutcheon opened commission discussion saying it's a pretty significant build.And he understands the
challenges with burning down trees,the root system failing, and yet needing to hold all that soil back. He
also said he can understand the concern from the neighbors as it's different in character from the rest of
the area. But looking at it, if you tore it down and rebuilt it,I'm thinking you'd look pretty similar because
of all the earth that was removed. I'd like to hear the comments of the commission here on what can be
done next steps,because we can't change the past. So let's try to keep the conversation on what can be
done going forward. Do we let them finish it with the proposed changes?Or does anybody have an
opinion on some kind of other plan or approach towards this?
Kirchner said his initial frustration is that in-kind walls were approved and we didn't land there. Due to
the dirt that was removed.today we can't go back and do X,Y and Z.And therefore, by the applicant and
the homeowner circumventing the process,they removed that ability for neighbors, City staff, and this
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commission as well as the City Council to have a review process of how this looks. We maybe can't go
back based on the amount of dirt that was removed. I'm fairly certain that what we're looking at there
from the original walls to what's new are not in-kind. They're a different footprint.They're different
angles and different places on the hillside. So my initial thought is also the precedents that we set to then
go back and approve and after-the-fact variance,because I worry does that say 'go ahead and do what you
want?' And then we're going to have to say, 'Oh,well,we're stuck with it now'. I worry about the
precedents and what that sets for our City.We've got a lot of bluff and hillside to protect around the lake
and that might be a slippery slope,pardon the pun.
Bollis said he definitely has the same concerns as Commissioner Kirschner. Typically,when you're doing
a project like this, if you can't build in-kind for whatever reason, it's great to come back here.But looking
at it as a situation where it's imminent that there's going to be a problem,I question whether it could have
even been built in-kind.We don't know what those existing walls were. We don't know if they even met
code as far as what the new walls have to meet and are engineered by. So all the information I have,I feel
like the new system is definitely engineered, signed off on. We don't even know what the old system was.
I feel like the contractor did a good job dealing with the problem that they had there. It's just unfortunate
it didn't come up here. Or it wasn't able to come here because I wouldn't have wanted to stop and then get
halfway through the winter and not be able to do anything.And then we'd have a huge problem this
spring, if that were the case. So I think it's probably fortunate that it got built to the extent that that it did.I
think either way, if the engineer says it works, if there's a seventh wall or just raising that sixth wall,I'm
fine with the proposed raising the sixth wall and doing the appropriate grading. I guess the question for
staff would be I don't know if that would require a railing.
Curtis said the City's building official could be asked to comment on that and clarify with the applicant if
a railing is required by state code before it goes to the City Council.
Libby said he tends to favor several remarks that Commissioner Kirschner mentioned. One is that I think
it was a poorly-conceived plan to start with; it did not get enough review. And I think that once you get a
stop order, it's a flag. Not to defend the City Council,but when you have an approval, and then
something different than what was approved is built or constructed with very little interaction with the
City engineering, it's a formula for failure. Because for one thing,you created a slope that didn't exist
before.And in the spirit of conservation and preservation,not only within the scope of our empirical
bluffs ordinance,you have the protection of the lake itself.And I think that those were not centrally
focused on how the engineer designed this with very little consulting or approval in that plan and design
and engineering with the City. So trying to remove a little fault from the City, I defer to Mrs. Price's very
sage wisdom as a credentialed individual looking at this kind of from the outside,that there was too little
analysis to really look to not have the disaster that I think this really is. I think that what they really need
to do is recreate the bluff wall at the top that they previously had. First of all,you could have a straight
fence. It would be helpful,but no one knows that,not even the contractors,who know how to operate the
machines and move the dirt in the soil and bring the portions of the wall out that needed to be removed.
There really are not enough statistical solid metrics to really determine how this really should have been
done and how to fix it. I'm not really in favor of approving any of this.Even with the staff suggestion,the
two suggestions that I made,I think really should go back to a planning stage with the original engineer
who should have done more due diligence with the City engineer, so they know that as they move
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forward,they're operating within the structure and the constructs of our Orono City bluff ordinance,
which is very focused on preservation and conservation.I don't see much of that here. The operators did
what they were told. They worked from a plan,but I think was a very faulty plan to start with.
Erickson said,he felt Commissioner Libby's comments are well said. What stands out for me is that the
staff does not recommend approval of any walls which encroach into neighboring properties.He quoted
the staff recommendation. The issue here is was there encroachment?And if there was then I concur that
the neighboring property owners should be involved in the process with their consent. I would add that to
the concerns that Commissioner Kirschner and Commissioner Libby have raised.
McCutcheon said what we have now is holding back earth. What would we give them for guidance if we
did have them go back to planning stage.Do you have any thoughts on that?
Libby said his only suggestion would be to put that top bluff wall back. I'm not an engineer,but I have
probably eight years of working with the bluff ordinance.I also have some on-site experience on Tanager
Lake, in green trees,were in almost identical circumstances existed, except for the fire.And that wall had
to be replaced four times in the course of seven years because we had a number of 100-year rain events.A
very reputable,well-known designer of that sort of construction,and reputable veteran construction
operators,maybe like yourself, came in and thought it would work. But the engineering lacked what it
needed to stabilize it. Like Mrs. Price mentioned--numbers,metrics,calculations, design and
engineering. I don't think that there was enough of it here. One solution would be to not have created a
new slope, if that could be corrected. And once again,I think that top left wall needs to be there.
Kirchner asked had this come before us as a blank slate,what would some of the feedback have been?
The contractor stated that he initially had proposed a boulder wall.I don't know if that would have
allowed for less intrusion from east to west across the front of the bluff. I believe that the issue was
hardcover.
Curtis clarified the issue was it wasn't in-kind, and they couldn't do it with a building permit at that time. I
think it was a time issue. Retaining walls are listed as hardcover but they don't count against your
property's hardcover total. She added that the engineers spent a great deal of time on the design.
Bollis said he had been concerned that there wasn't enough engineering, but looking through there(the
packet information),there's quite a bit.
Curtis said the City stopped the work on the project,then we asked that the engineer give us his opinion
on what was constructed.And did they follow the engineering of his initial design. With the extended
wall now, adding 10 more feet to a length of wall isn't going to necessarily change his metrics to use the
same word. But he did confirm that and has done considerable amount of work.He's not here tonight, but
I've spoken with him and he was at the council meeting. So he has thoroughly reviewed the project.
McCutchen said he felt he was looking at a situation where it's structurally sound. It's engineering
approved, except for the one last modification with the staffs recommendation of adding vegetation and
making sure that the wall doesn't encroach on neighbor's properties. We definitely would need to verify
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that. I don't want to re-engineer it here. But I'm just still not clear on next steps.I don't know how you
make it structurally sound without making it be as intrusive as it is,because you have to hold back that
earth.I do see the challenges of trying to build a retaining wall with no structure and burned timbers and
trying to excavate and finding more dead,rotted timbers.Did they approach it the right way?My guess,
even if they did it the right way,they would have started digging into it and found they had to come back.
It's a very challenging project.And so I'm trying to figure out, is this a workable solution now where
we're pretty close?Could they add some vegetation?Making sure that that doesn't encroach?Is this
something that we can move forwards with? Or is it something that we need to start over with?
Kirchner asked if it was necessary to have gone as wide with the wall from east to west.
Bollis said you had a bluff previously, and a combination of a wall system,but there was also vegetation
holding that. That vegetation is gone. There has to be something that's going to hold that up,which I think
is the reason why this wall expanded in the spots that it did.I know they're supposed to build in-kind,and
you look at that overlay,at first, it does not look like it's in-kind,but realistically, it's actually less
hardcover than it was.And it's essentially doing the same thing. It's off by a couple feet here and there,
but I don't know how you would do it any differently with the constraints of working on a steep slope like
that,with not touching any vegetation on the sides on the neighbor lots. To tear it down I think would be
worse. That'd be a giant step backwards and you'd end up with something very similar.Essentially,the
new wall is very similar to what was there.It's just you couldn't see it because you had a storage shed,
walls and stairs and bushes.I doubt there was any drainage behind the old wall.I don't see any outlets for
any drain tile(in the photos), like the new wall has.
Kirchner said as much as I do have frustration with how this was approached and how we landed here
today,I also would firmly agree that are we going to do more damage by denying this and saying start
over and the impact that would have on the bluff to try this again. I don't like this one all day long.But
I'm concerned that we could potentially do more harm than good by saying go back to the drawing board.
McCutcheon agreed it's a no-win situation for everybody involved. This slope is ridiculous. It's one of the
steeper ones I've seen. The newer construction retaining walls are pretty obvious because they're built to
code. Maybe there could have been a subtle change to make it less obvious but I think at the end it would
still look like it does today.I tend to say move forward with it with making sure that those items staff
mentioned are addressed.
Libby it's very rare that he disagrees with the staff. But I think that this is an ill-fated project that actually
was constructed and built different enough from what the council approved that it deserved the stop order.
And except for the couple suggestions that I made that would actually bring it back to some of the
original construction,I don't think it's redeemable. The original wall burned which is unfortunate. The
way it was constructed is very different than what the City approved. The Council did not approve the
design that got built.
Curtis said I just want to clarify,they applied for a building permit. She explained the plan review was
part of the building permit process. The Council saw an emergency slope repair to finish the top. That's
basically all the council saw.
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Bollis said I think it comes back to what was here previously was a seven-tiered timber wall that we don't
know how it was engineered, and it was replaced with what is currently a six-tiered timber wall that we
know how its engineered. That's essentially in-kind.It's a tiered wall that was built to the engineering
specs which are pretty detailed,which I have to believe are much better than what was existing.I agree
with everybody up here. I don't think the process is right at all.But I think we're going major steps
backwards if this has to be removed,I'm saying functionally this is what was there and if they wanted
something different, obviously,they would have had to go through a different process. The other piece is
that seventh wall. If they built that,then it would be more in-kind to what was there. But that's not in front
of us right now. So that we have to vote on is what's here.
Erickson asked if the commission was headed towards a tabling motion.
McCutcheon said he'd take any motion at this point to get going. I think we have two of us that have
spoken out in favor that we've got enough here where I think the existing this retaining system is
workable.
Bollis said we're no longer approving in-kind,we're approving the variance that's in front of us
Curtis said yes, setback variances for the new walls.
Bollis said he was ready to move to approve the variance but he thinks the seventh wall should be built
that was already approved by the City Council.
Ms. Curtis said she would prefer we not design the wall. The Council approved the emergency repair as
an emergency repair, not as a 'you have to build the seventh wall'. Their alternate to the seventh wall is to
increase the height of that sixth wall. She clarified the design had been approved by the applicant's
engineer. We don't approve engineering.
McCutcheon said a licensed structural engineer in the state of Minnesota put forth a design that's going to
work in his eyes.And that's pretty good for me.He said the commission might be splitting hairs to require
the seventh wall.
Bollis said his thought is that we've got a split commission right now.And maybe that seventh wall gets it
more to what was in-kind previously.In my mind that gets it closer to what it was supposed to be.And it
makes essentially the top of that slope what it used to be.But I'm not going to redesign the project, so
we've got to vote with what's in front of us. So would you rather us move to deny?Because it's missing
that seventh wall?
Kirchner said he felt the commission didn't have enough answers because the engineer was not present.
He suggested making a motion with the recommendation that the engineer provide additional feedback
on the width of the wall.
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Bollis clarified his motion to approve the variance as applied with the addition of the suggestion from
Kirchner that a licensed civil engineer provide additional feedback specifically to the east to west span of
the walls.
Erickson asked to add the staff recommendations that it be ensured the wall is not encroaching on the
neighbors or is doing so with their permission.
Bollis accepted that amendment to the motion.
Libby said he would like to see additional scrutiny on completion.
Curtis verified the City will inspect it when it's completed.
Bollis moved,Kirschner seconded,to approve LA22-000068,2815 Casco Point Road Variance
including staff recommendations,additional engineering review of the width of the wall and final
inspection.VOTE: Ayes: 4,Nays 1 (Libby).
2.LA22-000070 STACY KROMENHOEK,4085 WATERTOWN ROAD,REQUESTS AN
AFTER-THE-FACT VARIANCE FOR A SIDE YARD SETBACK FOR A DECK.
City Planner Nye gave a presentation on the item, stating the applicant is requesting an-after-the fact
variance for a side yard setback for a deck and more specifically deck stairs. In April of 2021 variances
were approved for the subject property for the construction of a single-family home. Variances were
approved for lot size, lot width, front yard and side yard setbacks. This property is very small and narrow
for the RR-1A zoning district. This district requires a minimum of a five-acre lot and 300-foot width. The
subject property is less than an acre and only 73 feet in width. The district's 50-foot side yard setback
requirements overlap,taking away any compliant building envelope.Based on these practical difficulties
variances was granted back in 2021. The building permit for the construction of the home was issued in
August of 2021.And construction began after that. As construction drew to a close staff discovered the
deck and deck stairs were built 17.3 feet from the northern property line where 19 feet was required. The
applicant has chosen to move forward with an after-the-fact variance. They're here today requesting the
variance to keep the deck and deck stairs where they are now to allow a modified side yard setback of
17.3 feet. The applicant has identified the substandard lot size and width as practical difficulties, also
noting that the current owner of the property was not responsible for this and would like to keep the stairs
in place. Moving the stairs to the rear of the deck instead would impact the view and sunlight entering the
home. Staff agrees the lot is substandard in size and width and doesn't have a compliant building
envelope. These practical difficulties led to the approval of a variance in 2021. Staff does not believe
there are any new practical difficulties that will lead to a modified setback today. The construction error
that resulted in the deck stairs being constructed 1.7 feet beyond the side yard setback does not constitute
a practical difficulty. Therefore, Staff recommends denial of the requested variance. The applicant is here
tonight and has provided supporting documentation and can be asked for additional testimony.No public
comment has been received.
Commissioners asked where the steps were supposed to have been.
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Walsh said he agreed.
Johnson moved,Seals seconded,to direct staff to draft a resolution approving an after-the-fact
variance for LA22-000070,4085 WATERTOWN ROAD.VOTE: Ayes 4,Nays 0.
17. LA22-000068,VALDES LAWN CARE& SNOW REMOVAL OB/O MARK&LISA
THOSTENSON,2815 CASCO POINT ROAD,AFTER-THE-FACT VARIANCES
Staff presented a summary packet of information. City Planner Curtis said in July the lake slope timber
walls and other improvements on this property were destroyed by a fire and a building permit was issued
to reconstruct the walls in-kind.During the installation of the walls staff observed that the construction
expanded beyond the previous footprint and as a result a stop work order was issued.Because the work
was halted prior to completion in November,the owner requested and received permission from the
Council to install a final wall as their engineer provided documentation showing that slope failure was
imminent and needed this emergency correction. The final wall has not been installed,rather the
applicant is now requesting approval to increase the height of the existing top wall to reach the correct
grade rather than installing an additional wall. The applicant is requesting after-the-fact setback variances
to address the wall footprint expansions in the bluff and lake yard. The changes to the configuration of the
retaining walls if approved will likely impact the applicant's ability to fully recapture the structural
footprints and dimensions of the previous existing deck and shed,which were also destroyed. In
February,the Planning Commission held a public hearing and voted 4 to 1 to recommend approval of the
variances including the following conditions:prior to Council review,the applicant shall provide an
engineer's opinion regarding the necessity of the additional width of the installed walls and a vegetative
planting plan which will screen the walls from the lake. These have been provided in your packet.And
following completion of the project an as-built survey would be required. Comments from the public were
received.Replacement of the destroyed walls is essential to protect the bluff and steep nature of the slope
on the subject property as well as the immediately adjacent neighboring properties who also have steep
slope conditions. Staff finds that the variances to permit the expanded retaining wall structure within the
bluff and 75-foot setback are necessary to protect the slope stability of the surrounding properties and
once screened,will preserve the existing character of the area. Staff recommends approval of the setback
variances for the improvements and the conditions set by the Planning Commission. The contractor is
present this evening.
Seals asked for a refresher on what was approved at a previous meeting.Are we agreeing to other things
that were not intended?And are there any of those things in here?
Curtis said at the time of the emergency slope repair that was the only action the Council took. It was not
in any way an approval of the expanded walls,which is why we're here tonight.
Benson said she was trying to get her head around this because she wasn't on the Council in the beginning
when this when this started last year. When the slope repair emergency was granted did that enable the
contractor to continue working in that area in November to secure it?
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Curtis said that was correct but they did not,they just stabilized the slope. They did not do the final wall
as they requested. They determined that they would just protect the slope and then evaluated it and
decided that a higher sixth wall that was already installed would be more beneficial support for the slope
rather than an additional seventh wall more towards the home back into the yard. The fire happened in
July.We issued the permit for the in-kind replacement of the walls,which is administrative,in
September.We issued that stop-work order in October because of the expanded wall footprint that our
inspector confirmed for us.They did not utilize boulders because that would have expanded the footprint
of the wall and they were trying to expedite the repair. So they did not want to go through the timeline for
the variance publication and approval for boulders.
Joe Valdes,owner of Valdes lawn care, 6476 St. Croix Trail South,Hastings,Minnesota, appeared before
the Council along with Tyler Warnke,2157 Valley View Place, St.Paul,the equipment operator on the
job and Paul Schimnowski with Criterium-Schimnowski Engineers, 161 Dunbar Way,Mahtomedi,
Minnesota,the engineer of record.
Walsh noted Valdes had said before the Planning Commission that he didn't look at the plans. He also
noted that Valdes just went and started digging.
Warnke said he was first on-site,and had the plans with him. We were looking at the plans as we were
starting the project.
Walsh asked if they had the plans,why did they think they could bring a bulldozer down there and scrape
out the entire hillside?
Warnke said we had to remove all existing walls. In order to get down to the bottom, I had to dig a road.
Walsh said,no you didn't.You didn't have to dig a road. That was your choice. You had other options,
and that's my whole issue here is that you had other options. You didn't have to do it from the top and dig
an entire road down a hillside,you chose to do that.I think at the Planning Commission you said it would
take way too much work to do it all by hand from down in the bottom, so you chose to build a road down
the middle of the hillside and scoop it all out. So instead of a hill on the hillside,now you have a cliff I
have a cliff too. The guys handed it all in my cliff when we had to re-do mine. You chose to go and dig it
all when you had a specific plan for in-kind replacement.And so at some point,you dug it all out,your
engineer came and designed an entirely different plan that you then pulled a permit for. So it's like going
and getting a permit for a 3000 square foot house and then building an 8000 square foot house.
In the discussion, Council Members asserted that the applicants had gone beyond the scope of an in-kind
solution and removed a great deal of dirt from the bluff The applicants stressed the complexity of the job
and noted they had to deal with burned remains of the previous structures and then found underneath the
burned wall several feet of old timbers and concrete which had to be removed. They said most of the
material hauled away was that and not the hillside itself The also said they had filled in behind the new
walls with several feet of supports and material for proper drainage.
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Walsh said you never came and asked us,you just went and did it.You're just asking for forgiveness
instead of permission,because we would have never have allowed that. I think you need to go put the hill
back.You need to get your engineer and you can figure out how you're going to do it.
Mr. Schimnowski said he would also like to add that it always works on paper,right?I drew these plans
based on existing retaining wall measurements that were out there. And there was a lot of concealed
conditions on this site. There was a lot of material buried on this site that needed to come out to stabilize
this hillside.And looking at some of the photos of the existing conditions at the time of the fire,there was
significant slope issues and erosion at the adjacent property lines. That had nothing to do with this. If I
would have the opportunity at some point to illustrate the means and methods that are necessary to
demolish,excavate and build the timber wall. They had to move a lot of dirt and it's going to look like a
lot is happening but it needs to happen to build a structurally-adequate wall.
Johnson said from his perspective and talking with the neighbors that quality work was done. I don't think
that's the question. There's a question surrounding the methodology that you used.I think a road is a good
description. It was 12 feet wide?Could that have done been done with barge work from the lake without
having to do that instead of coming from the top of the bluff?
Mr. Schimnowski responded could it have been done?Yes. Would it have been practical to do that?No.
Not with the amount of material that needed to come out temporarily,and then go back in for backfill.
Johnson said what he saw was pretty alarming. I haven't seen that methodology before.And it seems like
keeping as much of the bluff virgin is important. How do we handle this situation to discourage other
contractors from just plowing down the hill and telling us well that's how it should be?On the other hand,
I appreciate that with earthwork, oftentimes you find things when you start digging.And what I didn't like
about your report was your note that the reason the emergency seventh level wasn't done was because of
frost and snow. On another project on a property I owned in another city,I dug a basement around the
same time and they didn't even have to put frost blankets down. So it wasn't a frost issue.And if you can
move all that dirt,you can certainly move some snow to get there if that emergency required. I read that
and I thought, well,that's disingenuous to me.And so then it calls into question the rest of it.And all we
want is to get the straight story to make sure that other people don't do the same thing like make roads
without the City approval or understanding and the right engineering ahead of time.I share the mayor's
frustration that we can't just have this going on, and I think that's what this was. So I don't really know the
path forward. But you've created a problem.
Seals said I think my concern is the neighbors. They didn't sign up for this massive project.
She noted the before and after photos are drastically different. We're pretty protective of the like kind.
Just to see the change,there's a lot of earth that moved.I'm concerned for the homeowner and I'm also
concerned for the neighbors.What else is going to come out of this because so much was changed?We
have several emails from residents just showing us the before and after. I had to look at it several times
and actually go out there. It doesn't even look like the same property.
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Benson asked if it's possible if the project were rebuilt that the Bluff would look as it did before.Is there
a way of restoring this bluff? She also asked if it is correct that the contractor had to dig so far back to
accommodate the support timbers.
Valdes said when we started digging,we don't know what was on the back of the wall. We built this wall
as a complete structure from the bottom all the way to the top.Every single wall is like a structure all the
way from the top so that will be there forever. He said he would have preferred to do boulders but it
would have been a 60 to 90 day approval process. In January it is impossible for us to build a wall with
boulders.When we got stopped working,this happened on Friday at three o'clock,we completely stopped
work.He said they were allowed to go back and take emergency precautions to prevent erosion over the
winter. They later came to the conclusion with engineering that they don't need to have a seventh wall
because it would get more into the homeowner's property when we can go six timbers higher here.
Benson asked is it true that that trees are unable to be planted in or around this new retaining wall.
Valdes said no trees but they have a design plan to completely cover the walls with tall grasses and
arborvitaes that don't have root systems that will affect the wall or the drainage.
Benson asked what would be the effect if the work were to be taken out or redone?At this point,there's
no putting the bluff back. Is that correct?It would be tearing out what's there and putting in boulders or
something else.
Warnke said he could only say we haven't talked about that, if we were to tear it out what would be the
next step?
Council Members said they believe the new wall system has to go back to the original grade and line up
with the top of the bluff and the properties on either side.
Curtis said she would suggest that in future applications for similar projects that we require them to
provide us with their method of construction, rather than just the plan for construction.At least that would
provide a more realistic expectation for the applicant and the neighbors as well as the City for what we're
going to see start to finish how the project will progress.
Walsh opened the discussion up to public comments.
Carol Price, 2813 Casco Point Road, said she is the property owner on the west side of this property. I do
have some grave concerns. The biggest one is that adding 1.7 feet to the existing sixth wall,the top of that
wall that exists now, it's not sufficient to prevent soil erosion from my property on the west side, due to
the differences in the elevation levels, as the retaining walls are currently built.And you saw by the
picture earlier,the fence at the top that that level was basically the same along the properties.And this
wall actually curves in. Part of that was building these walls further back. So I'm going to show my
findings. I've been going through a lot of this data,even back from the original drawings. So there's a
letter from Criterium-Schimnowski Engineers dated February 24,2023 regarding the sixth wall versus a
seventh wall and it does not mention any change in property gradients to the adjacent properties. The
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ORONO CITY COUNCIL MEETING
March 13,2023
6:00 o'clock p.m.
letter states the design option to add height to the existing sixth wall was done on December 9,2022.But
there are no details in this information packet to support the design analysis.Also,this letter states that
adding height to the existing sixth wall is I quote,a good option to reduce the steepness of the slope.
However,this conclusion to me seems rather vague,and it does not indicate the total gradient and how to
mitigate the effects of a steep slope. The letter also states that adding height to the sixth wall versus
building a seventh wall,could,I quote,result in less soil disturbance and excavation. However,the bluff
has already been disturbed and excavated with a backhoe,basically digging out the entire bluff
throughout this retaining wall rebuild project.It is my concern that the Criterium-Schimnowski engineer
does not provide any details of how to mitigate the slope from the neighboring properties with respect to
adding 1.7 feet of height to the sixth wall,and how that is comparable to building the seventh wall that
was in the original plans.But all is explained if you review the original plans of the retaining wall by this
engineer, dated August 24,2022.In the design limitations section,there is a statement, quote, site layout
and grading design are not included in wall design services. Those services are the responsibility of the
site civil engineer end quote. So that begs the question,who is the civil engineer on this project that can
assure that the grading is done properly,to mitigate the bluff grading to adjacent properties?Based on the
property surveys,the elevation level of my adjacent property near the very top of the bluff is at 963 feet.
The survey in Council Exhibit A depicts the current top of the sixth wall at 957 feet foot elevation,a
difference of six feet. By adding 1.7 feet to the sixth wall,the resulting elevation gradient would be 4.3
feet. There is a photo on page 26 of this information packet that does show the existing slope of the
property to my property that currently exists. The plans provided in this information packet Council
Exhibit E show plants and flowers that will be planted in this area.This depiction also shows a wall on
both the west and east side of the property.I am not certain if these walls are the existing wood timber
walls that run along the side property lines or some other wall that will be built to replace the wooden
timbers.However,my concern is will this depiction in Exhibit E be sufficient to mitigate the 4.3 foot
slope differential that currently would exist?As a comparison reference,there are photos included in the
letter from Criterium-Schimnowski Engineers dated November 18,2022 regarding the timber retaining
wall upper tier,and that closely resembles the current condition of the bluff with the exception of the
snow on the ground. The photo had an outline superimposed for the placement of the seventh timber wall.
The outline on the seventh wall did extend along the adjacent property lines to hold back the dirt. The
engineer stated in this letter that the final seventh wall height will increase to about four feet tall near each
end where the existing slope increases.And a follow-up letter dated November 22,2022,the engineer
states that quote,the slopes of the top of the timber retaining walls constructed to date are much steeper
than originally designed. Thus again,my concerns of the steep slopes.The City Council has a very
difficult task to decide on the next course of action or reaction for this after-the-fact variance request. The
request to increase the height of the top sixth wall to reach the correct grade height rather than installing
an additional wall has my concerns.As the property owner on the west side,the elevation gradient to the
top of the bluff seems quite steep with regard to adding only 1.7 feet to the top of the sixth retaining wall.
Should the City Council authorize construction of the added heights to the sixth wall,I would request that
the City Council approval would require an as-built survey following completion of the walls and
restoration of the grades. This could be ambiguous considering the top of the bluff and the side elevation
grading to the adjacent properties have been altered from the original grades. That is before the fire
occurred on the bluff and burned the original retaining walls. I would also ask the City Council to require
that containment measures must be implemented to compensate for the change in elevation from the
applicant's property to the adjacent east and west properties such that erosion is mitigated and controlled.
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MINUTES OF THE
ORONO CITY COUNCIL MEETING
March 13,2023
6:00 o'clock p.m.
Since the licensed engineer who designed the retaining walls is not responsible for the site layout in
gradient services,I would request that the site civil engineer provide the written assurances that the work
was completed based on known industry specifications and building codes for mitigating soil erosion and
collapse of the bluffs. So my final comments,this was a massive,massive project.There were many,
many dump truck, loads of dirt. I don't question the bluff work itself. I think Joe Valdes and his men did a
good job building the wall.It was the method of just tearing away the whole bluff that had everyone
concerned and has everyone concerned now.And my concern is that top wall doesn't meet the original
top of the bluff. There are the indications that plantings are going to be made. I will say that the wall was
built with a combination of dirt and stone behind those walls for good drainage. That is as it should be.
I'm concerned, how will those plantings take effect in that type of soil?Certainly,you could add
something to make it work.I think everybody tries to do a good job. The method of this one was beyond
what we've seen for any lake owner.But that doesn't mean we can't go forward and just make it a bluff
and retaining walls such that the neighbors on each side don't have to worry about that bluff falling apart.
So you have my condolences on how you want to make your decision. It's tough.I agree. It's very,very,
very tough.
Johnson noted that this is a lot for a neighbor. You're a particularly educated on the matter and I'm sorry,
you've had to learn this much about it. Thanks for your comments.We'll definitely want to integrate some
of your recommendations there to our opinion.But,the other part of this is how we deal with this.How
do we deal with contractors that go outside the scope?How as a City do we do this better next time to
prevent it for neighbors like you when all you do is live there?
Charles Price, Carol's husband,2813 Casco Point Road, stated Melanie,you made a great point,that next
time an application comes in some questions need to be asked.How is this going to be done?And I think
that might have been lacking on this one,because everybody from the City who saw it was very shocked.
And just to add another data point on the dump trucks,when we talk dump trucks,these are the kinds
used on the interstate highways. They're massive.And the worst day I think it was,you know,we're there
pretty much every day,we saw at least seven and maybe eight of these giant dump trucks of dirt getting
hauled off.It looked to me like they were bringing in gravel and backfill so the dirt went out and
hopefully proper backfill came in,the contractors might be able to clarify that point. He asked to have a
photo put back up. This is showing the top of the bluff where it originally was. That really shows where
the top of the bluff was from the top of the original bluff where that line is.That goes from one fence post
to the other. And that is actually 22 feet from the new top of the bluff,so that gives you a rough idea that
they've dished the shoreline back 22 feet from where it used to be. Drainage,we still haven't seen too
much about drainage at the Planning Commission. I did ask about it.And Joe did clarify that he has that
taken care of,but I'm not sure what that means.And I did talk to Wes today. He's still concerned. He
doesn't know,has the drainage been taken care of or has it not?. Wes, on the east side,he did ask about
the wall between the two properties,a border wall,if you want to call it that, does that catch water? So the
water can't just freely fall from this property to the 2817 property. So he wants that wall to remain of
some kind.It doesn't have to be exactly what it is right now. Margaret Martin provided a letter. And she
has statements from a professional geotechnical engineer and some of his points are really,really
important, I think.He's saying,where's the soil test?The engineer says, here's the wall design and I base
my wall design upon internal compound stability,but my design is dependent upon a geotechnical
engineer doing soils tests and soil samples, and making sure that the assumptions that I made to design
Page 11 of 21
MINUTES OF THE
ORONO CITY COUNCIL MEETING
March 13,2023
6:00 o'clock p.m.
this wall are accurate based on the actual soil as it exists.And I've never heard one thing about that being
provided.I don't know if there's been soil tests or not.I noticed that in the engineer's letter,the engineer
has a lot of outs that you can't hold him responsible if soils tests were not done. This has been a long and
difficult challenge for all of us. It's gone on for a very long time, and we're still going at it. So my
summary statement is as follows.If the City does decide to approve the walls to remain as they are,then I
recommend that the City at least require a soils test per the engineer's statements that he has in his letters
to the City.And also,require that a wall completion report is submitted by the engineer, Mr.
Schimnowski, and he has spelled out what that requires. They're actually in his letter.I am referring to the
one from August 24. It's in his letter. So that's all I have to say. It's been a tough deal.
Walsh said I can see that they wanted to get the bluffs down there taken care of but now they've created
an entire new bluff landscape that was not part of the like in-kind. They have to figure out how to
reengineer to get that grade back there,and figure that out to the best of their ability. Otherwise,what's
stopping anybody from just sculpting out their bluff?Just digging all the dirt?I either deny it,or we table
it and let the engineer go back to with the neighbors and get this figured out knowing the direction that we
need to see. So then you guys could decide do you want an answer today?Or do you want to go back to
the drawing board with the neighbors and try and get this figured out?
Mr. Schimnowski asked so one of the bigger issues of contention with earth questions for you is the top
grade of the yard,that you want that to be original?
Seals said we understand burn down. So there's some challenges. But I think trying to get as close as you
can back to what it was is probably ideal.
Johnson asked if the homeowners intend to replace any of the other structures that burned.
Curtis said they would like to reconstruct the deck and the shed that was beneath the deck.But as I
mentioned earlier, it might not be possible to capture the footprint of the previously existing deck.
Benson pointed out the situation was the result of a fire,not anything the homeowners wanted to do. So
this bluff,regardless of what happens at this point,will never be returned to its original state. Is that
correct?So we are where we are with it. And I think my thoughts are communication,communication,
communication. And I think it's always a tricky thing when expectations are set in one direction,and then
things happen in another.And this is something I was talking about earlier with Adam is that these
variances come about or these after-the-fact issues come about from poor communication,lack of
communication and expectations being set here and then delivering here. And regardless,we are where
we are right now. I do want to acknowledge how incredibly difficult it's likely for the neighbors in this
area.And that's important to say because I think whether it's the homeowners or the neighbors,nobody
was wanting this to turn out the way it has. Where I'm coming from is that going forward communication
has to be spot on. She said she was also very interested in monitoring the plan for vegetation. That's an
area that I think I'd like to focus on going forward. But I agree that for now,maybe tabling is the right
way to go.
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MINUTES OF THE
ORONO CITY COUNCIL MEETING
March 13,2023
6:00 o'clock p.m.
Curtis said it might have been helpful if staff would have more discretion in a situation like this of
approving something that is not necessarily in-kind,for example,the boulder wall.
Edwards said maybe that'd be a good work session topic. There may be better methods to do that than just
simply replacing exactly what's there. I will say for City engineering projects where we're doing the exact
same work,we often employ the exact same method--we will dig down to get everything that's bad out
and we will start rebuilding those walls. We just did a ravine stabilization project this fall, different
materials and a little bit different situation, but generally the same method.We built a road in and built
our way back out.
Johnson moved,Benson seconded,to table LA22-000068,Valdes Lawn Care and Snow Removal,
2815 Casco Point Road, after-the-fact variances.VOTE: Ayes 4,Nays 0.
RECESS AND RECONVENE
Mayor Walsh recessed the meeting at 7:58 p.m. The meeting was reconvened at 8:05 p.m.
FINANCE DIRECTOR REPORT
Finance Director Olson gave a presentation on the previous month's building revenue, noting the City is
about 35%ahead of last year and typically the first two months of the year are the lowest activity.We'll
have to wait until you see the May through October/November period where all of the revenue comes in.
So we're off to a good start.Hopefully it continues.We're at 16%of revenue at roughly 16%of the year.
CITY ATTORNEY REPORT
Attorney Mattick said he had a couple of updates. I did receive a request from Councilmember Benson
regarding the Data Practice Act, and I thought it'd be useful to share it with the entire Council. The
question was when you as individual Council Members get emails from residents or other citizens,what
is the status of those emails?And what the law says is that if there's an email from a resident to a Council
Member or the Mayor,that email is private data,meaning that if we got a data practice request,you
would not need to disclose it because it is private data. You as the holder of that data could choose to
share it if you wanted to.And you as the holder or receiver or sender of that email can choose to share it
even though it's private,but you can choose to withhold that as private data.Also,something to keep in
mind with that is if you get an email from a resident, and then you forward it to say,Adam,at that point
that email has become public;the sharing it with staff has made it public. If you get an email from a
resident, and they copy a staff member,that email then becomes public also. So strictly speaking,
correspondence to and from residents is private data. There are other types of classification. If you receive
property complaint data that's technically confidential,there is a legal distinction between confidential
and private. Otherwise,you know,when we've done our trainings,generally what we've said is look, all
emails
are presumed public,but I think this is one of those exceptions that has come up. The thing to keep in
mind is that if and when we have emails,if there's litigation,the discovery process may,in fact,require
them to be disclosed.But candidly,you start with the fact that they're private. So they're not always
disclosed.
Page 13 of 21
MINUTES OF THE
ORONO CITY COUNCIL MEETING
July 24, 2023
6:00 o’clock p.m.
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Page 1 of 11
ROLL CALL
The Orono City Council met on the above-mentioned date with the following members present: Mayor
Dennis Walsh, City Council Members Matt Johnson, Alisa Benson, Richard Crosby III, and Maria Veach.
Representing Staff were City Attorney Soren Mattick, City Administrator/Engineer Adam Edwards,
Finance Director Ron Olson, Community Development Director Laura Oakden, and City Planner Melanie
Curtis.
Mayor Walsh called the meeting to order at 6:00 p.m., followed by the Pledge of Allegiance.
APPROVAL OF AGENDA
The agenda was approved by consensus as presented.
CONSENT AGENDA
1. CITY COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES OF JULY 10, 2023
2. COUNCIL WORK SESSION MINUTES OF JULY 10, 2023
3. CLAIMS/BILLS
4. APPROVAL OF RENTAL LICENSE
5. AUTHORIZATION TO HIRE UTILITY WORKER – JAMES NELSON
6. AUTHORIZATION TO ACCEPT RESIGNATION – TRENT WIEBUSCH
7. AUTHORIZATION TO HIRE POLICE OFFICER -- NICHOLAS SCHWARZ
8. SHORELINE ESTATES (LA21-000055) – STORMWATER MAINTENANCE
AGREEMENT AMENDMENT
9. LA21-000070 – TERRIE DEBAKER O/B/O METROPOLITAN COUNCIL, 3447
CRYSTAL BAY ROAD, CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT, EXTENSION, RESOLUTION
NO. 7386
Crosby moved, Veach seconded, to approve the Consent Agenda as submitted. VOTE: Ayes 5, Nays
0.
FINANCE DIRECTOR REPORT
Finance Director Olson said his only topic was 2024 budget planning which he had covered in the work
session.
COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT REPORT
10, LA22-000068 - VALDES LAWN CARE O/B/O MARK & LISA THOSTENSON, 2815
CASCO POINT RD, AFTER-THE-FACT VARIANCES - RESOLUTION NO. 7387
MINUTES OF THE
ORONO CITY COUNCIL MEETING
July 24, 2023
6:00 o’clock p.m.
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Page 2 of 11
City Planner Curtis explained In July of 2022 the timber walls, deck and stair to the lake were destroyed
by fire. In March of 2023 the City Council reviewed an after-the-fact variance request for the new
retaining walls as construction was found to have expanded beyond the in-kind allowance of the
administrative building permit. Because there were a number of concerns, the Council tabled the
application to allow the applicants to redesign and provide clarification and supporting engineering. The
applicant has provided a wall plan with engineering reflecting a design as close to in-kind as they were
able to achieve, a landscape plan and a plan for the permitted lake access stair deck and shed. Earlier this
summer with the City's approval the contractor made modifications and corrections to the as-constructed
walls which were necessary in order to improve structural stability. The proposed replacement deck and
shed will not encroach closer to the lake than the previously existing structures. The lake stairs are an
allowed improvement within the 75-foot setback and can be constructed, along with the shed and deck,
with an administrative building permit. The applicant is requesting after-the-fact setback variances to
address the replacement wall footprint expansions in the bluff. Comments from the public were received.
Replacement of destroyed walls is essential, Curtis said, due to the bluff and steep nature on the property
as well as the immediately adjacent neighboring properties. The variance to permit the expanded retaining
wall structure within the bluff and 75-foot setback will help to maintain the existing slope and character
of the area. Staff recommends approval as proposed. The applicants and some neighbors were present.
Mark and Lisa Thostenson, 2815 Casco Point Road, the applicants, said they have been communicating
with their neighbors and doing their best to address concerns.
Walsh said it is a complicated project and he recalls the biggest issues were bringing the grade back to
where it was, making sure the neighbors were protected and whether the engineering design would add
height to the top wall or add an additional top wall. He asked how it was determined that the contractor
had not done everything according to plan.
Lisa Thostenson said she and her husband had no idea that the plan wasn’t followed exactly by the
contractor. They sent photos to the engineer and that is how they discovered there were some things that
they weren't comfortable with and requested assistance from the City.
Paul Schimnowski with Criterium-Schimnowski Engineers, 161 Dunbar Way, Mahtomedi, Minnesota,
the engineer of record, said he had received some construction progress photos from the homeowners and
noticed some things that were not done per plan. He notified everyone involved and ended up ending the
contract and service agreement with the contractor. He said he had not seen the neighbors’ questions until
the meeting but thought most could be easily answered. Matching the old bluff height was an important
consideration on this project, he said, and a height of 961 feet nearly from one side to the other with just a
little bit of step down at each end will provide substantial additional support for the neighbors’ properties
on each side. He noted they are still under a stop-work order and did some remedial repairs to the
existing work. The request is for a setback variance and not necessarily the wall approval.
Curtis also said the variance is for the location and placement of the walls. If there are any other technical
details, that is typically part of the building permit.
Patty Yorks, 2825 Casco Point Road, said her biggest concern is that the wall doesn’t blend in with the
shoreline and asked about the landscape plan. She felt some of the proposed plantings were too short.
MINUTES OF THE
ORONO CITY COUNCIL MEETING
July 24, 2023
6:00 o’clock p.m.
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Page 3 of 11
Benson said she would find it helpful to see a different rendering of the landscape plan that would show
height since she is not familiar with all the proposed species of plants. She said it would be her preference
that the City give as much guidance in that area as possible. Benson noted there were some concerns at
the last hearing on the root structure of some kinds of plantings related to the walls.
Curtis said the City could continue to work with the applicants to make sure plantings were right-sized for
the wall at maturity. She said root structure could result in some limitations for plant selection.
Johnson said rather than trying to set a landscaping plan and specific plants, the Council should stipulate a
percentage of screening and allow the applicant and staff to design the landscaping.
Thostenson indicated a photo of the former wall before the fire and said he would be happy to work on a
landscaping plan as it would be better than it was before.
Penny Saiki, 2874 Casco Point Road, asked about drainage, bowed sections of the wall and the
requirement for railings.
Curtis said railings are only required on the deck and stairs and the building inspector would make sure
that all requirements are followed.
Schimnowski said the walls are designed to drain any surface water that gets behind them. The weep
holes were included in the design as an industry standard; however, it is very unlikely that any water will
ever be seen draining from them.
Lisa Thostenson said new drain tiles have just been installed around the house and they worked with the
wall contractor on where those will drain.
Carol Price, 2813 Casco Point Road, the neighbor to the west, said the Thostensons had not actually
contacted them and they had never gotten any notification from Curtis. She and her husband are seeing
these plans for the first time. She said her husband could not be present but his comments were that this
was not in-kind replacement and the shed and deck should be treated as new construction. He also
questioned the drainage plan. He contended portions of the plan did not have the sign-off of a licensed
engineer in the State of Minnesota. He said there are conditions in the engineer’s design that if ignored,
make reliance on the engineered design impossible. He requested the City require completion of the soil
testing that the engineer requested and a retaining wall completion report.
Schimnowski said he did not see the same problems in the grading plan that Price was pointing out. The
drainage on the site, as proposed, meets all the City standards, he said, so he does not have any concerns
with that. He added the building inspector will be out to do inspections as the remainder of the wall goes
up. When it's completed, there will be a letter from the design engineer saying it got built like it was
supposed to get built with his signature on it.
MINUTES OF THE
ORONO CITY COUNCIL MEETING
July 24, 2023
6:00 o’clock p.m.
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Page 4 of 11
Price said at the March meeting, the Council said they believed the new wall system has to go back to the
original grade and line up with the tip of the bluff and the properties on either side. The Mayor had said at
the time the contractor had created an entire new bluff landscape that was not part of the like in-kind, and
they have to figure out how to re-engineer to get that grade back, she said. Price said the concerns she
expressed at the February and March City Council meetings do not seem to be addressed in the revised
plan. She said the proposed plans to add 3.4 feet in height to the center of the sixth wall near the stairs and
then add timbers besides toward the adjacent property don’t mitigate the gradient difference. She
contended the new patio would be larger than the original and further into the average lakeshore setback.
The survey denotes that the timber border of garden from the adjacent lot to be removed, she pointed out,
explaining the garden border is actually a retaining wall that steps down the elevation gradient of the
Price property to the applicant’s property. This elevation ranges from approximately six inches to 12
inches. She asked, where is the note to explain what will be done once the timbers are removed so that her
yard and gardens don't fall into the neighbor's yard.
Johnson said Ms. Prices’s notes were included in the packet and are very technical and no one on the
Council is a licensed engineer, as she is. He asked how the Council can take her comments and apply
them directly to the engineers involved and find a way to address these in a way that is meaningful to her.
Johnson said what's important to him in this process is that the Prices as neighbors have done nothing
wrong. There has been a problem and as a result, the neighbors are suffering through this process. Within
the responses of both Prices, he said, there's some really good information that quite honestly, he doesn't
understand. However, the City has staff to be able to do that. He asked what is the best process to make
sure that the Price’s concerns get addressed to give them satisfaction that their investment is protected.
Walsh suggested a meeting between the neighbors, the City staff, and the applicant’s engineer to address
the questions. He said the City’s goal would be to make sure it is done correctly and solves all those
issues.
The consensus of the City Council was that the Prices would meet with the applicant’s engineer and the
City Staff to get questions answered. City Council Members discussed the need to be sure of plans to
taper the top of the wall at the east and west ends and make sure the landscape plan screens enough of the
wall. The Council debated requiring a certain percentage of the wall being covered.
Crosby suggested 25 percent be required.
Benson said without getting into percentages or trying to micromanage this process, she thinks the
intention is to create a view from the lakeshore up and for the neighboring houses that is covering as
much of this as possible. That's really the goal, she said, and it sounds like that's achievable.
Veach said it seems that communication has been an issue. She heard that the applicant is willing to plant
vegetation and it would be in their best interest to make the retaining wall as attractive as possible. She
believed they would figure that out and the Council does not need to get into the weeds on that as long as
everybody has agreed to a mode of communication.
MINUTES OF THE
ORONO CITY COUNCIL MEETING
July 24, 2023
6:00 o’clock p.m.
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Page 5 of 11
Johnson said his proposal would be to have staff draft the approval so the applicants know that the City is
approving the process, but the approval doesn't get ratified until the next City Council meeting. He said
that would give the applicant, neighbors, and engineers time to talk and if something were to come up
there would be an opportunity to remove approval from the consent agenda at the next meeting and
discuss it further.
Johnson moved, Crosby seconded, to have staff draft the approval for Resolution 7387 amending it
to include the adjustment of the wall at the corners and to maximize the screenage of the
vegetation. VOTE: Ayes 5, Nays 0.
In a continuation of the Community Development Report, Community Development Director Oakden
said the department has continued to be busy with permits and on-site inspections. They are working
through about 10 applications for the next Planning Commission meeting as well as text amendments and
code enforcement.
CITY ATTORNEY REPORT
Attorney Mattick said he had nothing to report beyond the items scheduled for the closed session later
that evening.
CITY ADMINISTRATOR/ENGINEER REPORT
11. OLD PUBLIC WORKS FACILITY REMODEL (23-044)-DESIGN PROPOSAL
Edwards updated the City Council, noting staff is looking for guidance on a way forward on fire facilities.
The resolution passed at the time of the needs assessment approval called for the staff to seek a proposal
from an architect on the design for the remodel of the existing public works facility into a permanent fire
house. That was done with Oertel, the current architectural firm working on the new public works facility.
The task was to provide a facility for the Orono Fire Department. The challenges are that the existing
facilities Station One and Two would require renovation and maintenance totaling a couple million
dollars over the next few years. The other complication is that Station One is co-owned with the City of
Long Lake and the current litigation hampers any access of either those facilities right now. Remodel of
the existing public works facility into a permanent fire station is possible, but it is costly and not
necessarily ideally suited to the purpose, he said. He suggested the Council take a more incremental and
phased approach and engage the architecture firm to help with some temporary facility needs that would
last until the City could get full access to the existing facilities and get those fully remodeled. Orono
bonded for $3 million for fire facilities. The remodel of the existing public works facility would be about
$3.5 million, leaving no funds currently identified to do any upgrades to the other facilities. Use of the old
public works building as a permanent fire department may also require some significant structural
improvements, he said. The predicted occupancy for the building would be September 2025. The other
consideration would be architect’s fees estimated at $295,000.
Veach asked about use of the old public works facility after its use as a temporary fire facility.
Edwards said it has potential as a recreational facility and some grants may be available for that. There
are many things that would need to happen to that building regardless of its eventual usage such as
roofing and mechanical, he said. There are some things that would be different such as air handling needs.