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HomeMy WebLinkAbout02-20-1991 Planning Minutes^ L'i’&i ■v:.; m MINUTES OF THE ORONO PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIAL PUBLIC INFORMATION MEETING REGARDING HIGHWAY 12 CORRIDOR SELECTION HELD FEBRUARY 20, 1991 ROLL CALL: The Orono Planning Commission met on the above date with the following members present; Planning Commission Chair Charlie Kelley and Planning Commission Members Jeffrey Johnson, Mai’r.aen Bellows, Ed Cohen, Jim Hanson, Candace Rowlette and Sara Moos. The following represented the City Staff; Building and Zoning Administrator Mabusth, Assistant Planning and Zoning Administrator Gaffron, and City Recorder Scheffler. Councilmembers Goetten and Jabbour were also present. Chairman Kelley opened the meeting at 7;00 p.m. and welcomed those in attendance. He informed the public that another meeting on this issue is schedu.lad for February 27, 1991 at 5; 30 p.m. He said, "The meeting will be mainly a work session. The Planning Commission will use all of the information presented this evening and try to form a recommendation to forward to the City Council. In my opinion, that recommendation should include a location and a statement regarding the degree of upgrade that should occur." Kelley briefly reviewed the procedure for addressing the Planning Commission and began taking public comments. Hartmut Ginnow, 1840 Lakeview Terrace, asked whether light rail transit is a possibility. Cohen replied, "The cost of the light rail system is cost prohibitive. If such a system is implemented, it v/ould be from the Burnsville area to 35V7. I also believe that because cf the enormous cost to construct 394 , the State will not consider spending additional monies in this area for light rail transit." Hanson added, "I read an article stating that the cost of light rail is not economically feasible because of the relatively low population density in this area." Ginnow asked if consideration had been given to elevating or tunneling portions of Highway 12 as a method of relieving traffic congestion. Kelley stated that the issue of design has not yet been discussed. John Merideth, 3685 Watertown Road, stated that he sees two problems that MNDOT is trying to address with this project and that there are two possible solutions. He said, "MNDOT believes there is a need for a major east/west highway to extend all the way to South Dakota. There are plans to improve Highway 12 all the way to South Dakota. From the Communities standpoint, I believe it would be best if such a highway did not go through - 1 - - ri mru - ini i lii Yf^ i*ii'iTirii ; • 1 y- ■k'*' t. ’ . i- PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING HELD FEBRUARY 20, 1991 Orono. It seems to me that it would not be difficult to connect Highv;ay 12 with Highway 55 somewhere near Rockford. This would not completely relieve the congestion in Long Lake, which ls the second problem. It is not clear to me that a four-lane highway is the only solution to the Long Lake congestion problem. There are upgrades proposed for County Road 6. It may be that safety improvements to Highways 6 and 12 may be all that is required. If those improvements are not acceptable to MNDOT, then I would like the City Officials to take the position that two of the proposed routes through Orono are unacceptable. One unacceptable route is along the Luce Line, the other is County Road 6. I believe that locating the corridor in either location would have significant environmental impact on the Luce Line Trail and our lakes. If a four-lane highway is necessary, and must go through Orono, it should stay where it is presently. Bob Biesterfeld, 450 Deborah Drive, agreed that constructing the corridor near the Luce Line would have a negative impact on the wetlands and wildlife in that area. Hanson stated that he seems to hear over and over again a Community consensus of "not in my backyard". He said, question has nothing to do with what my position will be on this issue, but how do we as a Community respond to the transportation needs of the State? One of the political issues involved here is the fact that the western three-quarters of Minnesota, directly west of here, have been under-developed for 20-some years. This is due to the fact that those communities have not had good highway access to Minneapolis/St. Paul, which poses an economic hardship. To what extent are we strictly residents of Orono and we deny our responsibility in a larger community? Steve Harris, 3850 Watertown Road, stated that though he lives close to a few of the proposed corridors, none would greatly impact him. He said, "So it isn't so much in my backyard. I have talked with MNDOT personnel and attended a few meetings. I have heard discussions regarding the option of building nothing. I think that is unrealistic. My impression, from talking with Steve Hay, is that he would prefer to have a freeway, but realistically a four-lane is what they want and think they need. I would prefer not to have a four-lane running through Orono, but considering Mr. Hanson's comments, that realistically addresses those concerns, and probably is what will happen. The other question is, as residents of Orono, why did we move here and what criteria were in place when we did. The Comprehensive Plan was in place setting forth how things would be in the future. The integrity issue is what was in place and what was planned for to begin with. If the Comprehensive Plan was in place, and v/e were to believe it, then if it is still in place, we still should believe it. That is whar Orono has as our integrity pos:.tion. Realistically we have to realize that we may have at least a safe transit responsibility for people from east - 2 - •lA. .AOMlbli 1^. h '■h ite.i-r.- ■ -v'^j r.- ■■," '•. :\' ■ I' ..r PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING EIELD FEBRUARY 20, 1991 to west and west to east. Speed may not be our responsibility. Whether it takes ten or twenty minutes to get through Orono, if you can do it safely, then that is the point. If we accept our responsibility as citizens of the State and feel that we must let people get through safely, and yet we maintain our integrity position, which is that there would be no additional corridor in Orono, then logically something needs to be worked out with existing Highway 12." Sally Hauser, said, "I chose to live in Orono because it is a rural community. My husband works in Arden Hills, but wa did not want to live" there. It is my opinion, that those people who wish to live far west and work in Minneapolis can make that choice. If they wish to get to work quickly, they can live near 35W in the city. The people living Orono chose to do so because of the environmental characteristics. I have a proposal that I've not yet heard discussed by anyone. As mentioned previously, there are two groups of people wishing to get to two different places. One group wants to get to the Dakotas and others live in the immediate western suburbs. The solution for traffic going to and from the Dakotas, you bring 494 north to Highway 5>. For those living in the western suburbs, a gentle upgrade of the existing Highway 12, using reversible lanes, would solve the traffic congestion. If there are four lanes, three lanes could head east in the morning and three lanes heading west in the evening." Bob Biesterfeld stated that he pi*eviously resided in Willmar. He said, "Western Minnesota is very well served by several major routes, 94, 169 through Mankato, Highway 1?, and Highway 7. Highway 7 lends itself much better for upgrading and v/idening. I agree that we are dealing with two different traffic groups. There is speculation that economies of western cities would improve if more roads serve that area, but that is just speculation. I think we need to address the major issue for local traffic which is getting through Long Lake and Maple Plain. I personally would rather take an additional five minutes to get through Long Lake than have the entire road torn up." Cohen stated that he would like to know how many of the persons present prefer to have nothing done at all. One resident asked why it would not be possible to have one lane of traffic heading east and west elevated over the railroad tracks. He said, "There would be no properties or businesses lost, yet it would alleviate some of the congestion." Another gentlemen stated that it seems the consensus of the residents is that something needs to be done, but that there only be an upgrade and utilization of existing east/west roads. - 3 - m r K.'-" fv.'-' tt'; ■. PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING HELD FEBRUARY 20, 1991 Kell'^y said, "Let us not address the issae of upgrade at this tirae^ only location. How many residents in this room would like Highway 12 in the same location." The majority of people raised their hands. Charles Schroeder, 1925 West Farm Road, asked why^^ the Highway 55 is not being given more consideration. He said, "That is certainly a solution for traffic west beyond Long Lake and Maple Plain. I have heard that Highway 55 will not address the local problem, but am mystified by that. It seems to me that there are currently four ways to get into Minneapolis. Taere is Countv Road 15, existing 12, 6, possibly 24, and Highway 55. I would"think that a modest upgrade of Highway 12 and County Road 6 should serve the purpose. If you reside in Delano or Maple it would not be unreasonable to drive an extra mile or so north to get on a fast moving Highway 55. It has been determined that people tend to take the faster moving roads even if it is a mile or so out of their way." Cohen stated that the Federal and State governments have spent billions of dollars to construct 1-394. He said, "Those agencies are not going to admit that they made mistake and should have used Highway 55. It is necessary to view their mentality. 1-394 is going to ba the funnel of the bulk of the traffic into town because it leads to the parking ramps and downtown accesses. That is not the case with Highway 55, which in my opinion is^^more logical for trucks. I think the City has to recognize that." Schroeder stated that if the consensus of Orono residents is that they do not want to have a freeway, then Highway 55 offers a viable alternative. Darrell Anderson, 920 Viost V7ayzata Boulevard, stated that he constructed his home on Highway 12 in 1967. He said, "It appeared at that time that the corridor would go behind the cemetery and along the Great Northern railroad tracks. However, there was not enough funding for the project and nothing further was done until now. I sat for six minutes one day trying to get out of my driveway onto the Highway. I nave heard the crashes at the location where Old Long Lake Road intersects. To my knowledge, there have been three fatalities there. Tiere is no question that there is a problem. However, I do not believe that upgrading the existing Highway 1? is a feasible approach. I late to think what the construction period would be like." Rowlette said, "I would just like to get an opinion for the audience. Since most of you raised your hands indicating that you would prefer the existing corridor, I would like to know how you feel about our responsibility to the town of Long Lake and the business owners along Highway 12. Is it your opinion that the newly constructed Long Lake shopping center should be torn - 4 - .4 .»> t t ?i ^-d._ ^ ^ -- - -- - -.m I ‘ )i * i.. PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING HELD FEBRUARY 20, 1991 down? Do you have any suggestions of how to deal with that issue? I agree with Mr. Anderson's comments about the congestion and safety problems. It scares me sometimes when I try to get around the City of Long Lake. The town of Long Lake has been in this location for some time. I may not be the most beautiful town, but there is a lot of history and historical buildings." Alan Carlson, Fox Street, stated that there would be no discussion involvin-^ alternative routes if no one was concerned about Long Lake. He said, "The City of Long Lake is the basis of the problem. We are trying to be fair to the City of Long Lake, However, that is where Highway 12 is today, and that is where it would be automatically upgraded, were it not for the people of Long Lake. It is a difficult problem to solve. It is clear that the people coming from the west could use Highway 55, 494 and 394 to get downtown. I found the recent census figures interesting. It showed that Eden Prairie's population increased by 141%-they need a freeway. Brooklyn Park increased by 30%, Maple Grove increased by 83%. Those cit: i need a freeway. Ovono increased by 6% in tan years and Minnetonka Beach lost population. It is apparent that we are not building a highway for ourselves and we are trying to take everyone else into consideration. It would be one thing if we needed the freeway and did not want in our backyard. However, that is not the case." Kelley added, "Population projections for the years 1980 and 1990 were done after the 1970 census. Orono's 1990 population is what was projected for 1980." Eleanor VJinston Comprehensive Plan, development." said, "That in because of the City's The City of Orono is not planning for Sherokee Use, 3530 Eileen Street, stated that the Planning Commission and Council have stuck with the intent of the Comprehensive Plan. She said, "Many of us are here to supporc you (the Planning Commission) in your efforts to continue doing that. I agree that we must not negate our neighboring cities. I don't think we should just accept MNDOT's mandates. We need to be creative and find other alternatives, while upholding the City's Comprehensive Plan. I am here to ask what we can do to assist the Planning Commission toward that goal." Bruce Carlson, 59j Northstream Road, stated that everyone present this evening is more than likely in favor of safety. He said, "There are definitely places along Highway 12 where safety improvements ate not o.nly necessary, but are planned tvu occur. Whether or not safety improvements include widening to four lanes is an e.ngineering issue. Ingenuity could be used 'O design a more safe highway with only modest widening. It seems to me that if Highway 12 is moved off of its existing corridor, that the businesses in long Lake will suffer. They rely on the traffic - 5 - rf. ■ ' -.i- » . 'r. t:'^’£,v<- r. ; PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING HELD FEBRUARY 20, 1991 going through that area to make the businesses thrive. I think Orono should help the City of Long Lake work with their land use planning to minimize the impact to the businesses. I believe that once discussions begin that include going cross country onto a totally new alignment, and you take an environmental impact of what is currenitly felt along Highway 12 and transfer that to a 1,000 or 2,000 yard corridor elsewhere, and you wrap the City of Long Lake with freeways on both sides, that seems to be irrational, long range planning. The City oi; Orono should try to negotiate with MNDOT and the City of Long Lake to develop a solution that would be as least painful as possible to all parties concerned, while providing a safe, maybe slow, but consistent with our land use plan, type of highway. It seems to me that once you go across Highway 6 or elsewhere, and MNDOT draws a line on a map without having any construction funds, that is irresponsible as it puts all of the property owners along that line in jeopardy. V^e need to uphold cur Comprehensive Plan. V/e don't have to apologize to other cities for what we stand for. We are entitled to protect our property values." Rowlette disagreed with Bruce Carlson's comments about business dieing if the freeway went around the City of Long Lake. She said, "Most business districts thrive when the freeway does bypass them. Most of the traffic going through Long Lake does not stop, but only adds to the congestion. That traffic makes it difficult for the local people to come into Long Lake and do business. Many people stay away because of the traffic." Desyl Peterson, 4385 Chippewa Lane, agreed that the City of Orono has an obligation to the City of Long Lake. She said, "T think the two crties should be consolidated. That is the ultimate solution for a number of problems including police/fire services, new public facilities and Highway 12. However, I do not believe that will happen in time. We could just consider the needs of Long Lake. The City of Long Lake has indicated their concern about loss of tax base and the impact on their business community. I think Orono has an obligation to work with Long Lake to make sure that does not happen. It may be necessary to relocate some of the businesses in Long Lake, but Orono could assist with that by detaching portions of our City and giving them to Long Lake. Orono may lose so.me tax base, but nothing compared to what may be lost if another corridor is selected. The area on Highway 12 near Otten Brothers may be an appropriate area to detach." Hartmut Glnnow stated that he is in the business of aesthetics and that in his opinion the City of Long Lake ne^'ds to improve in that regard. He said, "In ny opinion, the C. zy of Long Lake could only benefit from having slight pressure put on them to rebuild the downtown." - 6 - •! r. . k. ^ I ■ II I mwm i itTIWM i m J _ ik.... A.. Cl _* . — . ffm. m t ' i' '. •r.-''’ PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING HELD FEBRUARY 20, 1991 Bob Biesterfeld stated that the City's first priority is to look out for the City of Orono. He said, "I agree with earlier comments about the City of Long Lake being the reason we are having so many problems with this project. Waen Long Lake decided to construct the new shopping center, they were only looking out f >r themselves, as it should be. Ttiey knew there would be a Highway 12 improvement at some point. In my opinion, they built the shopping center hoping that it v/ould be a detriment to putting the new corridor through their town. The City of Long Lake has made their bed and should lie in it." Steve Harris stated that he owns a business along Highway 169 in Eden Prairie, but lives in Orono. He said, "There is a certain price on a business, but there is an emotional price on a residence. It is much easier to relocate a business than to relocate your residence." Jackie Singer, 4295 Watertown Road, agreed with Mr. Harris's comments. She said, "There is no comparison when you talk about displacing hundreds of households and impacting our environment versus the impact on two or three blocks of business in Long Lake." Roberta Schmidt, 3980 Watertown Road, supported the notion of working with the City of Long Lake to relocate their downtown businesses. She said, "The City of Long Lake does have some historical buildings. We have Stubbs Building Movers. Perhaps those buildings would be an effective focal point for the new downtown area." Rowlette said, "Everyone I hope realizes that if downtown Long Lake were removed, it would be downtown Orono." Jacki Anderson, 2280 Fox Street, stated that it is important for everyone to view themselves as part of a larger picture. She said, "V/e are citizens of Orono, but also of the State of Minnesota. It is necessary for people to go through Orono to get to other places and we have to have a broader sense responsibility. I do not agree that a freeway is the answer, but realize that something has to be done. I do not mean to anger residents along Highway 12, but when they moved there they knew it would always be a busy highway. I do not think we should vote to have everything moved up to Highway 55 because the people in that area have the same concerns that we do." John Maresh, 2085 County Road 6, stated that many various groups have been organized to support and/or oppose a particular corridor location. He said, "That is all well and good, but everyone is missing one point. If the road is constructed anywhere in Orono it is going to divide the City and affect persons living miles away. Any major construction that takes place not only in Orono, but Long Lake, Medina, or Maple Plain, - 7 - M 1. M i- (’•■'” . ?.. PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING HELD FEBRUARY 20, 1991 r.r..T'. Kp Board. I am not speaking for the School Board, because they have not discussed this issue. My personal opinion is that any construction that occurs in Orono through School District boundaries, in going to cause major problems. Tne School District does not have any additional funding for more school buses. If construction of a new corridor, or a major to change to the existing corridor occurs, it v/ould be necessary to add bus routes. It now costs the School District $30,000 per year for each bus. Any additional costs would have to passed on to the taxpayers. I think the best location for this improvement, which I believe is going to be a freeway, is on Highway 55, out of our School District entirely. The School Board was recently contacted by MNDOT. They indicated that they will begin safety improvement construction next June. The proposal is to first construct center islands at every intersection from Maple Plain to Delano and then to instal two extra stoplights when the project is completed. Even if Hiqhway 55 is the chosen corridor, there will still be a fair volume of traffic using Highway IZ. I think we need to encourage MNDOT to improve Highway 12 in such a way that it can handle t e traffic going through there in a safe, slow manner. I think a four-lane road, 35 to 40 mph from 1-394 to Maple Plain \;ould best serve that purpose. I would hope that is the position that the City takes." Kelley asked whether the School District is going to make its own recommendation to MNDOT. Maresh replied, "The School Board has not discussions on this issues. I think discussions delayed until the routes become more defined." begun its are being Kelley asked how the School Board intends to interact with all of the various cities it serves. He asked, "Vlill the School Board work with each city council prior to making a public statement about its position?" Maresh did not know how the School Board would approach the recommendation process in that respect. He added, "I only know that if the construction occurs anywhere in Orono, it will have a devastating effect on the entire Community. I think the Planning Commission should take the position that the City does not want the corridor here. The pressure for the corridor is coming from the western cities t’nat want a super highway to access Minneapolis." Kelley asked what time frame the School Board may have for discussing this issue in an open forum. - 8 - 1 ! : r. 1 .■‘•'I VH k f\ -*' »"Ipr I m :^:- '¥ il?/; ^i: PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING HELD FEBRUARY 20, 1991 Maresh stated that the School Board, at its next meeting, may request more definitive information from MHDOT about the meaning of the potential routes. He said, ''The problem the School Board has is that it deals with several communities. It will be difficult to come out with a hard statement recommending that the corridor be placed in one community as opposed to another." Goetten asked Mr. Maresh if he would notify each of the City Councils for the Orono School District communities of the meeting date for the School Board to discuss this issue. Maresh stated that if and when such a meeting is planned, the Board would notify all of the persons in the Orono School District. Kelley stated that he had been informed by City Staff that the scheduled safety improvements for Highway 12 would not occur until 1993 because of no funding. Dave Fritz suggested that it may be beneficial to have the citizens form a coalition with members from the other communities. Cohen said, "For those here this evening that think nothing is going to happen, you are wrong. Something will happen. I agree with comments made earlier about the impact that these lines on the map have for persons that may wish to sell their home. I still have not been given a true consensus of what you (the public) think is going to happen." Maresh reiterated that though there are three routes proposed that go through Orono, Orono can still take the position that they do not want the corridor to go through Orono at all. John Massopust, 440 South Brown Road, agreed with Cohen's earlier comments. He said, "We have to face the reality of this situation. I moved to Orono for the same reasons that everyone else did. I think the City needs to do everything possible to preserve the Comprehensive Plan. However, I also think we are fooling ourselves. If we put our heads in the sand, we are basically allowing Larry Dallam to make decisions based on what he thinks should happen in Orono. If we do not face the reality of what is going on, we are just deceiving ourselves- All you have tn do is drive on Highway 12 i a the morning or late afternoon and you realize that something has to be done. The reality is that millions of dollars have been spent to bring 1-394 right to Orono's border. MNDOT is not going to admit that they should not have done that and that all of the money spent to do so was wasted. They will work off of that. I appreciate all of the arguments made this evening in favor of Highway and have made those same arguments myself. However, MNDOT is not - 9 - r t'. ••-■:: f ■/> f'..- PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING HELD FEBRUARY 20, 1991 interested in pursuincj Highway 55. An indication of that is there has been no representation at any of the Highway 12 Committee meetings from any of the Hiqhv/ay 55 communities. I asked Mr. Dallam why that is and his response was that MNDOT did not wish to unnecessarily alarm them. MNDOT is not thinking of Highway 55 as a serious alternative. For the City of Orono to keep throwing the corridor up to Highway 55 is unrealistic. I would like to see it up there. I also want to have input on where the corridor goes. I agree that we need to work with the City of Long Lake. It was previously suggested this evening that we offer concessions to Lake Long to enable them to keep their business tax base. Orono is not interested in having a downtown arca> but prefers the rural character for our community. I believe that whatever tax considerations we offer Long Lake to save their tax base and relocate the downtown will have far less impact on U3 than constructing the corridor elsewhere will. Let MNDDT construct a downtown area that makes sense for Long Lake. The City needs to work toward solutions rather than putting our heads in the sand. MNDOT is very aware of the impact the five lines on the map have on property values. They have indicated that their prime objective is to have the corridor designated by this fall and eliminate the other four options. Once the other lines are off the map, it seems to me we have little opportunity for changing their opinion. We need to work toward a solution soon. If the City can put in front of MNDOT a solution that addresses Orono's and Long Lake's concerns, we may have a better say in the matter. It seems to me that there are few disputes about the use of the existing corridor the farther west you go. Long Lake is the trouble spot." Charles Schroeder said, "It appears from listening comments of Mr. Massopust and Mr. Cohen that some information exists which is not known by the citizens." to the inside Cohen explained that his comments are based on his past experience in dealing with MNDOT a.nd road upgrades such as this one that occurred in Golden Valley. Massopust stated that his opinions are based on information he gathered from attending the monthly MNDDT meetings. Schroeder stated that the fact the citizens are present this evening shows that they are not putting their heads in the sand. He said, "I am mystified as to why Larry Dallam will not consider Highway 55." .Sally Hauser asked why Highway 55 is not a consideration and if the citizen's efforts are in vain if in fact a corridor has been selected. - 10 - I I hi iSwA Ml li ■* " -...t .. - . . .iA. . »^<TTWi fiifcin itffc- am i ■ a" i I .r -1 .a -ll.k ilfM. . . . . .1 . t h ■ 5|» 'I’Sfr': PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING HELD FEBRUARY 20, 1991 Cohen stated that there is some flexibility for the citizens because the road is a State Highway and M^3D0T has a dilemma with the City of Long Lake. Alan Carlson said, "The Planning Commission has heard the consensus of the citizens and they want you to push Highway 55 so it will address the traffic coming and going from the west. Highway 12 will need to be upgraded to safely get local traffic through." Cohen stated that MNDOT may look at a County Road 6/Highway 101/1-394 option before considering Highway 55. ofAnother resident stated that a basic principle negotiation is to say no and go from there. He said, "After you say no and do everything possible to gain that, then state our alternative position. If you do not say no to from the start, you are starting at the wrong place. I would also like to point out that there has been no discussion regarding watershed into Lake Minnetonka. That is one of the objectives of the Comprehensive Plan. The City may be under pressure to provide sewage treatment facilities at a substantial cost." John Merideth said, "I think one of the decisions that has to be made is whether or not the citizens believe our City Council is limited to choosing between one of these three routes, or if they have the freedom to do whatever they think is best for our Community. I believe it would be a mistake to underestimate the influence of a strong stand by the City Council. I also believe that Highway 55 lends itself better as a corridor because of its surrounding characteristics. Highway 12 is much different and more residential in nature." Sherokee Use volunteered to survey the property owners along Highway 55 to get their opinion of where the corridor should be. She said, "I would think that the people along Highway 55 would love the corridor there. They are already commercial. It would not be difficult to swing up to Highway 55 past Delano. You could by-pass Rockford and end up ca Highway 55 where the industrial area begins." Cohen stated that he had attended a MNDOT meeting in the City of Medina. He said, "We are all saying go with Highway 55. The residents of Medina are saying go with Highway 12." Hanson said, "I have spent a fair amount of time considering this issue with no particular position to take. I have though about the obvious, pragmatic situations. Not the least of which is that there is hundreds of millions of dollars of 1-394 coming out and now stopping at the border of Orono, and we are telling MNDOT to take Highway 55. I'm enough of a pragmatist to say that grates against me a little bit. It seems to me that it behooves - 11 - PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING HELD FEBRUARY 20, 1991 US to take a hard look at what is possible to be accomplished and act on that firmly, without losing sight of what our long-term wishes are." A member of the audience asked Hanson to state his long-term wishes. Hanson replied, "One of problems I have as I sit here as a Planning Commission member is that I realize that the people that I see in front of me are not representative of the Community at large. Most of the members of the Community at large are not concerned enough about these issues to come to meetings. Another member of the audience asked what more the Planning Commission would like to see in order to feel that they ware qettin- a consensus of the Community at large. The person indicated that in her opinion, the Community is well represented at this meeting. She stated that people in the Community have not been properly informed of the issues. She said. There is a lot of innuendo going around this Community. Some of us have had to work awfully hard to find out what the truth is. Councilmember Jabbour stated that he was speaking only as an individual, not as a Councilmember. He said, "I agree that the process of integrity has not been up to my standards. It is refreshing to see that is changing and I would like to give some qood points to the Planning Commission and Staff. It is refreshing to see after four years that the Comprehensive Plan is becoming an issue and we are taking it off the dusty shelf to agree with it. I ask the citizens to please let the process happen. Everything that is being said is very important and we agree with you. However, some way or another our job as Council and their job as Planning Commission is twice as hard because the coalitions that were formed prior to the present Council being in place. The City of Long Lake is very trigger happy. Orono is in litigation with them on other issues. Before the citizens take a position, review all of the facts and figure out that there are other issues with which Orono and Long Lake ace involved. Highway 12 is a major issue, but it is not the sole issue that Orono is handling. I agree with the comments about merging with the City of Long Lake. They have serious problems--bad planning problems. Whatever you are suggesting is a Band-Aid. I do not mean to criticize Long Lake." Kelley stated that in his opinion, evening did represent the opinions of large. the people present this the Orono Community at Ann Cosgrove, 1895 Fox Ridge Road, asked if one o-. the reasons Medina opposes a Highway 55 corridor is that it may cause the County Road 116 issue to surface again. - 12 - F •-'C' ■V" •' V:i * •,■•* ' '. • ’: ? ' PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING HELD FEBRUARY 20, 1991 Cohen stated that the Medina citizens did indicate a slight concern about County Road 116, but mainly did not wish to have the corridor in their backyards. Councilmember Goetten said, "Though I am really here this evening to listen to what the citizens have to say, I would like to respond to Ann's question. I think the City of Medina is very concerned about the upgrade of Willow. In my opinion, if either Highway 55 or County Road 11 is selected, there is no question that upgrading Willow Drive would come back on the drawing board. I do not think that the City can just take a position that Highway 55 is the only option, because the City of Medina will be working equally as hard to keep the corridor out of their City as well." Eleanor Winston, Spring Hill Road, stated that she is not only concerned about existing Highway 12 be selected as the designated corridor. She said, "I am also concerned about the Comprehensive Plan in terms of the Planning Commission seeming to want to re-work it." The Planning Commission members all emphatically stated that they did not wish to re-work the Comprehensive Plan. Kelley said, "As Chairman of the Planning Commission, I have no intention to raise that issue or debate whether an amendment should occur." Ip Winston said, "We have the Comprehensive Plan in place. It seems to me that we should stand by it, rather than be intimidated into accepting something we do not want. Perhaps if we join forces with Long Lake, Medina anl Independence, we can take a stand that we do not want the road. Out East, in Massachusetts, there is a much more dense population. Yet they have found ways to preserve open spaces by slowing down development. One way to do that is to say no to these highways. We know that we need to make Highway 12 more safe, but we do not have to accept a freeway." Bellows stated that Kelley had read from the Comprehensive Plan at the beginning of the first Highway 12 Planning Commission raeeting. She said, "Everyone agreed that we are here to uphold the* Plan. We are here tonight for the purpose of being able to draft a statement representing the City that comes from the citizens of Orono. I would just like to express to those of you who are of the 'no build' or Highway 5 5 options that I would be very concerned if we, as a City, took that stand. That would provide MNDOT with a way to catch us shorthanded, when they unilaterally decide that northern routes will not be considered. I urge you to re-think some of Mr. Massopust's comments. I think there are alternatives to a four-lane highway or freeway. However, I think we had better explore those alternatives and be - 13 - ...... a.-, V PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING HELD FEBRUARY 20, 1991 very sure of where that might happen. MNDOT does have the to unilaterally object to Highway 55 no matter what stand the City of Orono may take." Dodd Cosgrove, 1895 Fox Ridge Road, stated that one of the problems is that the City is considering the City of Long Lake to be an adversary. He said, "The City of Long L?ke is potentially our Greatest ally. How can we possibly ally ourselves witn Long Lake if w- take a position to locate the corridor through the middle of their city? It seems to me that the strongest stance we have is to say 'no build' and send it someplace else. That also supports our Comprehensive Plan." John Massopust said, "I’m not sure that we would get a 'no build' consensus from the City of Long Lake, because they want something changed to move traffic through there better. Bruce Carlson said, "It seems to me that we have i..rlated the negative impact in our own minds of what could be a c. eative solution on the existing alignment to the point where we t link it is going to wipe out Long Lake. Tnat causes us to thi;.k that there is no way to compromise and that the only solution is to get everyone to support Highway 55. \Je should consider this as a negotiating process with MNDOT. 'We look at what is best for Orono and what is best for Long Lake to see if there is way we can come together on the issue. We can start out by saying that Highway 55 is the preferred solution. If it later becomes apparent that it will be more sensible to upgrade existing Highvjay 12 and other existing roads, that will evolve out of the process, but it will be something that may be acceptable as a reasonable solution. Another point is that it seems to me that there has been some reference made about the north and south groups. Our feeling in the northern group is that we want to cooperate with the City ot? Orono to help develop a consensus and a negotiating strategy that makes sense for Orono as a whole. We are also dedicated to getting the line off of the map that goes through our particular property. The gentleman representing our group is quite convinced that the Highway 5 5 issue is not dead. Discussions have taken place with the Metropolitan Council about the differentiation between through traffic to western Minnesota onto major thoroughfares that are logical for that kind of traffic, such an Highway 55. The Highway 12 corridor currently exists in a form that best serves local traffic. I do not believe we have given up on Highway 55 at all in our group. Our advisor indicates that is a very rational approach." Sherokee Use asked the Planning Commission members to express their own opinions relative to the Comprehensive Plan and what they believe they could agree on at this point. She further asked, "Can the citizens walk away from here this evening feeling - 14 - i': " iv ^.- • • . •yh: • . • 1* : i y.\S’ '•'.’ *-• ■ £::••: . , \ \ ^ fei» ':W PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING HELD FEBRUARY 20, 1991 secure that the Comprehensive Plan is what the City wants, and that means no freeway through Orono, but a creative alternative?" Kelley stated that he fully supports the Comprehensivi; Plan and does not favor rezoning. He said, "I can guarantee you that if the corridor is located elsewhere, rezoning will be necessary. Our Comprehensive Plan also states thr City of Orono does not wish to compete with neig! - . ng communities for industrial/commercial properties and nas no interest in developing a downtown area. That is my opinion." Eleanor Winston asked what Kelley's position meant in terms of the Highway 12 issue. Kelley said, "For me personally, it is either Highway 55 or the existing corridor. With regard to upgrade, I have no idea." Cohen stated that he also stands by the Comprehensive Plan and that his opinion favors the existing corridor. He said, "I will examine the alternatives, but that is my opinion at this point. The term freeway is used pretty loosely. I am of the opinion that the road must be widened. Something has to be done." Hanson stated that one of the compelling arguments he had heard this evening was that from Mr. Maresh. He said, "The psychological and factual divisions that such a highway creates in a community are significant. If you take that into consideration, the best corridor then would be County Road 6 which would bring the corridor to the northern boundary of Orono. That is if you are considering the City of Orono. If you consider the School District, then you would consider another set of geographical boundaries. This is what I was referring to earlier. When you weigh all the considerations, what represents the voice of the Community?" Roberta Schmidt asked what the City of Orono has done as far as communication with the City of Long Lake on this issue. Kelley stated that as of today, the Orono Planning Commission has not had any discussion with the Long Lake Planning Commission. Councilmember Goetten stated that there has been no conversation between the Cities of Long Lake and Orono regarding Highway 12. Schmidt asked whv. Goetten replied, "There are more pressing situations and issues involving the City of Orono and Long Lake. It is our understanding that the issue of the Sewer Pxant property comes - 15 - •V tv PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING HELD FEBRUARY 20, 1991 first." Jabbour said, "It was either the 5th or 6th of January that Lonq Lake asked us to meet with them regarding the police issue. To the best of my recollection, that is the first meeting that has taken place where our entire Council met with their entire Council. That is a major step forv/ard. It might seem like a minor issue, but prior to that, those two Councils could not even sit in the same room together. I do not understand why Orono and Long Lake are two cities, but that is how it is. Both cities have issues that need to be addressed and they extend beyond the issue of giving them a small parcel of land. We are now in litigation with them trying to preserve part of Orono the way we would like to see it developed. It is not necessarily the tax issue that was most important to Orono. At the meeting, I asked the Long Lake Council if we could talk about annexation.- Highway 12 and they vowed to be cooperative. So far we have not gotten over the hurdle of annexation. Tomorrow there will be a meeting in that regard with the Municipal Board. Until we get over that hurdle, I do not think the dialogue has been very good. Ms. Schmidt suggested it may be appropriate to table the annexation issue to clear the way for discussion on Highway x2. Jabbour stated that there is a time limit on the annexation issue. He said, "It is more complicated than it sounds." Another resident asked if the rest of the Planning Commission would answer Sherokee Use’s question about the Comprehensive Plan. Moos stated that she supports the Comprehensive Plan and that in her opinion, the new highway should be located on an existing corridor. She said, "Highway 55 would be great-- it moves it north. However, I also think that something must be done to Highway 12." A member of the audience asked how the Planning Commission sees the extent of upgrade needed. Cohen said, "Most of us feel that it is not going to be a freeway. We would not stand for a freeway. Secondly, widening is necessary, but should be done as minimally as possible with maximum safety." Kelley said, "I view the process through which we are as a means of providing us with your input. We will meet week to discuss the i:^sue among ourselves and take consideration what v/e have hea.rd frcjm you and learned attending Highway 12 meetings. Tne Planning Commission is to make a recommendation to the City Council as to where we Highway 12 should go, and possibly some vague recommendation going next into from going think - 16 - n 4 * '* i-^.- iii ■^i. j. •.,; mmmmmk ■•'i. 5iF f -la PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING HELD FEBRUARY 20, 1991 about size. We are trying to get the citizen's input this evening to assist us with making our recommendation." A member of the audience asked how the citizens could learn of the Planning Commission's recommendation once it is made. Kelley stated that their recommendation will be public information. He added that the public is welcome to attend the work session that will be held on February 27th at 5:30 p.m. He said, "The Planning Commission will address your questions regarding our position on the Comprehensive Plan, but that is all." Johnson stated that he supports the Comprehensive Plan. He said, "I think everyone up here has worked hard to see that it is carried out." Hanson said, "I also support the Comprehensive Plan, but it should also be stated that I have some questions regarding its workability in certain areas, specifically public and private roads." Rowlette stated that her support of the Comprehensive Plan is one of the reasons that she volunteered to serve on the Planning Commission. She said, "At this point I really do not know what should happen with a highway corridor. I have strong feelings in many different directions." Tom Terry, 4225 Watertown Road, asked Rowlette whether she would be able to make an unbiased decisions for the betterment of Orono, when she has a business located on Highway 12 in Long Lake. Rowlette replied, "Absolutely. I have a house in Orono which is more of any investment than my Long Lake business." Gail Harris, 2195 French Lake Road, asked the Planning Commission the following three questions: 1. Is a new corridor, one that is not existing at this point, consistent with the Comprehensive Plan? It was the Planning Commission's consensus thac such a corridor would not be consistent with the Comprehensive Plan. 2. Is an upgrade of Comprehensive Plan? Highway 12 consistent with the The Planning Commission agreed that an upgrade could be consistent with the Comprehensive Plan. 3. Is a four-lane, freeway/highway consistent with the - 17 - IIS I •I « M < PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING HELD FEBRUARY 20, 1991 Comprehensiva Plan? Kelley asked Ms. Harris whether she was referring freeway such as 494, or a highway with stop lights. Ms. Harris replied, "Highway 55 has four lanes." It was the Planning Commission’.'? consensus that a four-lane freeway/highway could be consistent with the Comprehensive Plan. Bob Gasch, stated that he now lives in Cokato, but has been an Orono resident for most of his life. He stated that MNDOT has on file a four-lane corridor for Highway 12 through the City of Orono which was surveyed in 1965. He said, "Some of you are probably aware of that corridor. MNDOT could pull that survey out of the file and use that as the corridor. The road would not only run through Orono, but the City of Independence as well. The City of Independence over the last 20 years chose to keep that highway corridor designated through their city. The City of Orono chose to no longer follow that corridor when it amended its Comprehensive Plan in 1980. If there is no agreement among the various cities for a highway corridor, MNDOT may decide to use the 1965 corridor." Bob Wyatt confirmed Gasch's comments. He added, "That corridor was selected because there was a largo Nike base in St. Bonifacious. That was going to be the main corridor for traffic going from Minneapolis to St. Bonifacious. That corridor does still exist and has been surveyed. Another point I would like to make refers to comments made earlier by Mr. Kelley. He stated that he did not know how he would vote on this recommendation to Council. I find that frightening because this is not a new issue. There has been ongoing input from the citizens for several months. 1 would like to get a sense of what you are going to discuss because the public is not invited to that meeting." Kelley informed Mr. Wyatt that the public is invited to attend the February 27, 1991 meeting. Hartmut Ginnow stated that he did not hear much discussion about County Road 6 or County Road 11. He asked, "Does that mean that there is a consensus for either Highway 12 or Highway 55?" Hanson replied, "I think that it what Chairman Kelley is referring to when he stated that we are not yet ready to make a recommendation. I hear numerous personal opinions that differ." Bellows said, "If the Planning Commission had come to this meeting tonight with our decision firmly in mind, this would not have been an open forum. Tne purpose of the meeting was to - 18 - mM. i ‘f msnA ■C' '-' r'i ’ ■ ■;-A - •:-•7~ PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING HELD FEBRUARY 20r 1991 receive your input to assist us with making a recommendation. So please let us consider all of the facts before we make a choice." A member of the audience stated that the groups from the north and south consistently support a 'no build' position. Bruce Carlson said, "I think it is fair to say that everyone here is in favor of no new corridor off of an existing alignment, safety and working with the City of Long Lake." Goetten responded to Mr. Wyatt's comments about the Planning Commission be sufficiently informed to make a decision. She said, "In all fairness to the Planning Commission, for those of you that may not know, the Planning Commission has only recently been given directives from the City Council to become involved in this process. I think the Planning Commission is doing an excellent job addressing this issue. The Council appreciates their efforts and we need all of you to support them. Every meeting that is held is open to the public. The public is always welcome." Ann Cosgrove said, "The public was told at the various MNDOT meetings that MNDOT would not build a road if the communities could not agree on a corridor. I asked Steve Hay recently whether the option of 'no build' is possible. He informed me that a 'no build' option is possible and that MNDOT cannot force a highway corridor down our throats. Mr. Hay ♦•eld me that they would have to bring this issue to the legislature in order to over-ride opposition from the cities, and that MNDOT would walk away before going to that degree. I would also like to say that I recently attended a neighborhood meeting in the City of Long Lake. A number of Orono citizens decided that we would like to work with Long Lake since the city officials have not yet done that. There were approximately 14 people at the . meeting and the Loug Lake residents seemed excited abo'ut the aspect of working together toward a unified position. Tney asked what they can do and I told them to start talking to their City Council members." Kelley encouraged the residents of Orono to talk with the Long Lake residents. He said, "Make them aware that we are interested in working with them. Encourage them to talk to their Council. Our City Council has heard the pressure from you to talk to Long Lake." Goetten stated that the City Council is trying to work with the City of Long Lake. Jabbour said, "The problem is that the process cannot be put on hold waiting for Long Lake to hop on board. We are facing issues involving a new facility, fire and police service. Highway - 19 - ■ i-V' ‘ ' V > ' i ■ r fitg ■— — - iifc laitfc 1^ I I^ ■ I■ ■ i~fc I III II I Ifcl I A Tr«r*tr k «n>i.i > I k. a — ~iI I~i 1 ~«ri k. I M ■r iCu . i •_! >i& i rfUrraMnln ■ ifi ^ ^ . PLANNING COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING HELD FEBRUARY 20, 1991 12 and the annexation. The Orono Council has stated to the Long go from here.” Charles Schroeder asxed the Planning Commission to include the Highway 55 option when contemplating their recommendation. John Maresh suggested that the City consider holding future meetings in a larger facility and recomi.iended the use of the Orono School Board room. Kelley thanked the public for attending this evening and closed the meeting at 9:20 p.m. -a ■v. m H' ■■ 4T ;'V'‘, Y.i ■ 'i'’ ■ • '* •/ .V #*Va- ' '-'4 ■ S 'ij#' i: iilllgil-ftL. - 20 - i.itiiiriii II I II Sj 1 1