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HomeMy WebLinkAbout06-03-1991 Park Commission Minutes , . M�NIITES OF TH$ ORONO PARR COMl�IISSION MEETING HFI�D JDNE 3, 1991 ROLL CALL: The Orono Park Commission met on the above date with the following members present: Park Commission Chair Richard Flint, and Park Commission Members Stephen Johnston, Susan Wilson, Phil Bradley and Alex Vongries. The following members were absent: James Gilbert, Bruce Kokal and Les Kelley. The following represented the City staff: Public Works Director Gerhardson and Acting City Recorder Vee. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: The typing errors will be corrected at a later time. Corrections for order and content should be indicated. On Page 15, the paragraph order should be reversed. A motion was made by Wi 1 son, seconded by Vongries, to approve the May, 7, 1991 Park Commission minutes, with typing corrections to be made by Gerhardson. BEDERWOOD PARR PLAYGROUND EQDIPMENT One quote from Earl F. Anderson & Associates was presented. Gerhardson indicated that it is not a requirement to go out on competitive bidding as long as the bid is under $15,000. This bid is $6.00 under that amount. Another vendor was asked to submit a bid, however, they chose not to submit the bid. Flint asked if they would go with the alternative. Gerhardson stated that he didn't think they could because it would then be over $15,000 and would have to go back out for bids. Flint asked what the reason for the alternative was and that they must feel there is some benefit to installing aluma-core posts in lieu of redwood posts. Gerhardson stated that perhaps the major difference between the two posts could possibly be in slightly less maintenance for the aluma-core. These posts are the main standard post used as anchors by drilling holes in the ground and cement footings. Flint asked if the aluma-core post is actually an aluminum core. Gerhardson stated that it is, although it doesn't appear to be. The corners, which are beveled, would be the only part of the post to show. The rest of the post is painted to match the rest of the redwood. Redwood posts have been used for 15 years and Gerhardson notes no deterioration or major problems with other equipment. Flint asked how much of the post would be above ground. Gerhardson stated from 4-5' , depending on the height of the structure itself. Some sections may be higher than others. There could be from 6 to 8 main corner posts. Bradley asked what would be included. He notes two backhoe diggers, one horse tough rider, one turtle tough rider and a play structure are indicated. Gerhardson explained that the play structure is the climber. Children can sit on the backhoe 1 , , MINIITES OF THE ORONO PARR COMMISSION IKEETING H$LD JONE 3, 1991 BEDERWOOD PARR PLAYGROUND EQUIPMENT CONTINUED diggers and operate a scooper with hand levers to dig dirt. This is in an area that is bordered off with beams and filled with an absorbent material (pea rock) rather than dirt. Gerhardson proceeded to obtain pictures of this equipment from his office while the Park Commission members looked at the area to be considered under Item 5 (Disposal of City Property). He then presented a copy of the lay-out and structure of the playground equipment to the members. The installer was the only one with this same equipment who could bid. The pea rock would be provided by the City. Vongries asked if it would be possible to get another bid. F1int responded that he did not know how meaningful a bid would be when specifying something made by a particular manufacturer. The main difference would be in the people to install the equipment. Gerhardson referred to the bid proposal for a breakdown of equipment and installation. Wilson verified that the equipment comes from a supplier out of Maple Plain and that Earl Anderson is the local representative who would be the installer. Flint asked Gerhardson to comment on the additional cost in the alternate proposal of installing aluma-core instead of redwood. There was no difference in labor costs but an additional $1942.00 for material. Gerhardson stated there was a different type of fastening. Bradley stated his opinion that this type of equipment is vastly over priced. Johnston responded that one of the largest costs involved with this is insurance. Liability insurance is a major factor. Gerhardson stated that the cost of the equipment itself is probably about 50$ of the cost. Both the installer and manufacturer carry insurance. Johnston voiced his concern over having only one bid. Vongries asked why a company that is in the business to make money doing this sort of work would refuse to give a bid. Flint replied, "Because they can't underbid Anderson." Since Anderson is the rep in the area, he has the best price and the other guy knows he can't underbid Anderson because he can't get the equipment at the same price as Anderson, therefore, he wouldn't waste effort on bidding. Gerhardson disagreed. He stated that both installers would be buying equipment from the same person. Flint felt the rep would get the better price. Johnston noted that the specs state that an alternative material may be used which would include the manufacturer as long as the material could be shown to be equal. Gerhardson pointed out the difficulty of making a choice if another manufacturer could present variations. Flint asked what the next step would be if the Park Commission approved the recommendation for this equipment. Gerhardson said it would go to Council because the recommendation would be to pay for it out of the Park Dedication Funds. 2 • MINIITES OF THE ORONO PARR COMMISSION MEETING HEIrD JUNE 3, 1991 BEDERWOOD PARR PLAYGROUND EQUIPMENT CONTINIIED Wilson asked to verify that this quoted price includes the equipment as well as the installation. Gerhardson confirmed this to be true. Everything is included in the bid but the 8" of pea rock (absorbent material ). Vongries asked what the cost of the pea rock would be. Gerhardson estimated that to be about $6-7 per ton. Wilson asked for further explanation of Alternate 2. Gerhardson explained that the City would move the existing climber in this proposal to Antoine. This would save $700. Gerhardson would recommend having the installer move this equipment as they are in the business. Bradley referred to a question of liability insurance on park equipment that arose a few years ago. The City had an insurance analyst look over City facilities. That analyst had indicated when he referred to the park equipment that "we could be in deep trouble". Bradley asked what had been done as a result. Gerhardson stated that a merry-go-round had been removed. They continue to come out and advise of possible risks. A weekly inspection program has also been initiated to inspect equipment and document the findings. Bradley asked if all park equipment is under the "master" liability policy for all City equipment. Gerhardson confirmed that it was. The City pays premiums each year and we have an agent of record. There was discussion as to whether the City is "self-insured" or "uninsured". Flint stated that he thought the policy was a retro-active readjustment type where without claims there is a refund on the premium. There is probably some kind of deductible as well. Flint expressed his opinion that the Park Commission should accept this proposal unless someone is willing to pursue other available equipment. This was approved last fall and won't get anywhere unless approved. Wilson inquired about the budget and what is in the Park Dedication Fund. Flint and Gerhardson concurred that there is about $200,000 - $225,000. Bradley stated his concern over the fact that this bid is $6.00 less than the borderline between no bid and competitive bid and the fact that there is only one bid. He referred to Landscape as the "standard" and that there would be other kinds of similar equipment with other brand names that could have been chosen. "But Landscape versus something else is not oranges and oranges, there is some differences." He then asked if two pieces of similar equipment, Landscape and something else, could be submitted for bids based on something comparable. Gerhardson stated that it would be possible but difficult and would never go in this year. He also said he has no problem with Earl F. Anderson and they have installed all playground equipment currently in the City. They are a good, reputable firm. 3 , ' MINDTES OF THE ORONO PARR COIKMISSION MEETING HELD JONE 3, 1991 BEDERWOOD PARR PLAYGROUND EQDIPI�lLNT CONTINUED Johnston found a problem with the fact that a concept plan for the park was put together by Earl Anderson, then specs were provided on what is needed by them and then they were the only bidder on the project. Wilson agreed. Johnston suggested that specifications be changed to specify the components of the system instead of a piece of equipment and then do a public bid. He felt a better price could be gotten this way. Bradley asked why Gerhardson stated that if new bids were asked for that the equipment could not be installed this year. Gerhardson said he didn't know when he could get this done and would need help writing up the specifications. If sealed bids were done, it would take about 30 days to prepare, the Park Commission would then look at and approve them, and advertisement in the paper would require 2 publications or another 30 days. The soonest bids could be opened would be at the August or September meeting. Bradley asked what the time schedule for the installer would be. Gerhardson felt they may not want to start that late in the season as the equipment would need to be ordered and made up. A completion date of 75 to 80 days after the award of bid had been asked for. The installer gave this amount of time as a reasonable delivery date. Vongries mentioned one other consideration. He had recommended replacing the equipment at Navarre Playground and upgrading the equipment at Roberta Lee Antoine. This may be the first of several upgrades in playground equipment. It may also be decided that another playground is needed. He stated, "I think this is also a learning process. To go ahead and grant this thing to these people, maybe we haven't learned what we ought to on the first go-around." He doesn't feel there is any "crush" to get it in this year. There have already been improvements. Bradley added that there is some playground equipment already there. Flint asked what would be done if they don't go ahead with this project. Vongries replied that considerations as to future playground equipment needs to be incorporated into the thinking. Each playground does not need to be uniquely different. Different kids go to each playground. Bradley added that there may be a better bid if 2 or more structures were bought. Gerhardson confirmed that the specs had been worked out with Earl F. Anderson. Wilson asked, "If this were to be put out for open bids, would the specifications be different in that we would not be requiring them to use this particular equipment?" Gerhardson replied that would be up to the Commission. More varying bids would be received this way. Visiting sites that already have equipment installed would be a way to see some options. Flint noted that the new school on Hwy. 101 has equipment installed by this company. 4 . M�NUTES OF THE ORONO PARK COP�IMISSION MEETING HELD JDNE 3, 1991 BEDERWOOD PARR PLAYGROUND EQUIPMENT CONTINUED Bradley commented that as long as the "components" were included, any company could make the equipment. Flint said this eqipment is not made to spec. A manuafacturer makes 6 to 8 different configurations and they are assembled in various ways. Vongries asked if there aren't companies that would have prints of various units and prices. Flint agreed that there would be. Gerhardson added that by looking at catalogs is how they had arrived at the current decision. Johnston stated that he was not uncomfortable with the product, arrangement or the installer, just the fact that there was only one bidder and he was the one who did the specs and design. In the specs it states, "All of the installers must be certified by the manufacturer and have installed a minimum of 10 complete projects annually for the last 3 years." He is trying to decide if it is necessary to have completed 30 of these or if what the installer has done is try to limit the competition because they are the only ones doing that kind of volume. Gerhardson thinks they are trying to say that they want someone who knows what they are doing to put it together. Johnston asked if it was the manufacturer or installer who wrote the specifications. Gerhardson confirmed that it was Earl Anderson. Vongries asked for Gerhardson's recommendation, what inspections he has done, if a certain level of committment has been made, and whether this first one should be approved. Gerhardson did not want to recommend anything the Park Commission did not unanimously support. At this time there seems to be questions unanswered. He would suggest tabling until the next meeting. He could call the other installer to find out why he chose not to bid. He would be able to give additional information on what would happen if more bids were asked for at the next meeting. Vongries asked to have him find out where Anderson had installed one of these structures so they could look at it. Johnston asked why the present proposal could not be advertised in the Construction Bulletin for two weeks to see who else might do this kind of work. Those bids would be back before the next meeting. Bradley asked if the present bid were advertised publicly. Gerhardson said it had been sent out to two installers. Flint asked where it would be advertised to have more inf ormation within 30 days. Gerhardson replied that legally it has to be advertised only in the legal newspaper which is The Pioneer. You can, by choice, send it to the Construction Bulletin which goes all over the country. He questioned how much playground installers would read the Construction Bulletin. Flint asked if it were advertised in the Construction Bulletin when it could be put in. Gerhardson stated that he needed more direction and wanted to know if the present bid was being rejected and the Park 5 „ ' MINIITES OF THE ORONO PARR COMIKISSION MEETING HELD JDNE 3, 1991 BEDERWOOD PARR PLAYGROUND EQUIPl�NT CONTINiTED Commission wanted to rebid the project. Flint stated that they wanted to keep this bid but verify that it was reasonable. Gerhardson said that he could tell the Park Commission that this bid is reasonable but he can't document it. He repeated what the installer had told him, "When you told me you were going for quotes because you wanted to stay under $15,000, I had to do that.” Gerhardson added that if you go for sealed bids it would go for over $15,000. He said there may be a law that says your last advertisement has to be so many days before the bid opening and he would check. Flint stated that he did not think a formal bid process is what the Park Commission was trying to do but somehow independently verify that this is a reasonable price. Again Gerhardson said he would contact the installer who did not bid and try to find some others. Vongries suggested finding one or two catalogs that may help. Gerhardson reminded the Commission that now that this bid had been presented it was public. If anyone called to find out what the bid was, the information would have to be given. Johnston said he would be able to provide a list of installers that had bid other jobs. He referred to a similar job done 3 years ago for $19,000. It was a similar arrangement of equipment as well as a planting area adjacent to it, hard core surface with basketball hoop, two bike racks and two picnic tables. In comparison, with inflation, Johnston did not feel comfortable with the figures. Gerhardson said you could subtract $700 for moving one piece of equipment to another parcel. A motion was made by Bradley to indefinitely table installing the equipment at Bederwood Park. Wilson seconded. Vongries questioned "indefinitely" or until the next meeting. Bradley said indefinitely because he liked the suggestion to think about more than Bederwood Park. Flint suggested discussing this motion further. He added this is a large amount of money for not a lot of equipment. Inflation on this type of equipment runs about 10� a year. He would like to see something done in 30 days whether Anderson comes in, another bid from an installer could be obtained, or another competitor come in to talk to. Tabling indefinitely seems to sort of kill it. It would be better to take more time, whatever it takes, to have everyone understand and be happy with the decision. Vongries suggested that the word indefinitely could be dropped. Bradley withdrew the word indefinitely. Flint asked to have Anderson come to the next meeting to explain and show pictures of what he is proposing. Johnston felt it would be a less involved process to get two more prices. Vongries did not feel a "dog and pony show" was neccessary, but 6 ; _ MINiJTES OF THE ORONO PARR COMMISSION MEETING HELD JONE 3, 1991 BEDERWOOD PARR PLAYGROUND EQDIPMENT CONTINDED rather a couple more prices and locations of where to look at the equipment. No formal bid process would need to be done at this time. Gerhardson stated, "What you're saying is that you really don't want to stick with this one piece of equipment." Vongries replied that it could be something like it. Gerhardson said that may confuse the issue. If you have one or two more installers look at this same proposal and offer a price that would be one thing but to say something similar would be more involved. Vongries agreed that it should be just this piece of equipment. Flint noted that there were at least two places nearby that have similar equipment. One area at the school just south of Hwy. 6 on Hwy. 101 and the other at Parker's Lake. They could call to find out who installed those and then ask them to bid on this basic equipment. Flint suggested they could have those quotes by the following month. Gerhardson said he would contact Johnston for the names of some installers and then send them the specifications for a bid. A motion was made by Bradley, seconded by Wilson, to table consideration of the Bederwood playground equipment. Ayes - 4, Nays - Flint. Motion carried. Gerhardson will try to bring back information for discussion at the next meeting. Maple Grove Tour June 8, 1991 - Discussion Dick Flint asked if everyone would be at the tour. Wilson asked what time. The time was confirmed as 1: 00 p.m. Gerhardson said he would not be there. Flint asked about transportation arrangements. Gerhardson said there was a vehicle available for $100 at Maple Grove. Vongries may not be able to attend. Bradley may also have a conflict. Gerhardson will contact the members not present to see if they wi 11 be attending. If there were only 4 - 6 going on the tour, the vehicle may not be necessary, however, the ability to be dropped off at one end of the trail system and be picked up at the other would be a better experience. Johnston and Flint agreed that the bus would be the best option to get the f ull benefit. It was agreed to meet at the Park and Ride in Wayzata at 12:30 p.m. to car pool. All members going will either meet at this spot or at Maple Grove. Since the bus is being rented and there will be extra room, Johnston encouraged other interested people to join in the tour. Gerhardson will contact the Council members to give them the information to attend. Gerhardson said if this tour was very good that another one could be arranged. Johnston commented that he did not want to "put out" Terry too many times. Wi 1 son asked what the primary purpose of the tour was to be. Johnston replied that they have a combination of things to show the members including two kinds of bike trails and an example of where the City has placed a City ballfield on school property. 7 . . ' 1KINUTES OF THE ORONO PARR COMMISSION MEETING HELD JDNE 3, 1991 Disposal of City Property There are three sites to consider. Johnston asked if the properties have values according to appraisals then would there be any transfer of Park Dedication Funds to, in essence, buy them. Gerhardson did not think that had been considered. Gerhardson confirmed that if the Park Commission finds a need for any of these parcels, with Council approval they would be used for Park and Recreation. The McCulley Road parcel was the first to be discussed. The location was defined by Gerhardson as being just north and northeast of the Luce Line on McCulley Road. A major portion of it is wetland. There is a development to the east. Flint asked about a previous situation on Turnham Road where there was a steep grade to get to the Luce Line. People parked on a private easement to gain access to the trail. Bradley remembered that at one time the developer of that tract wanted the City to create access to the Luce Line near the end of Turnham Road. There was a 20' straight drop and impractical to put an easement at that point since a half a mile or less to the east there was an at grade crossing. Johnston asked the appraised value of this property. The dry buildable was appraised at about $60 , 000 according to Gerhardson. Johnston asked if the dry buildable was high enough above water table to install a septic system. Gerhardson confirmed that it was and a soil test had been done. Bradley asked for the total size of this parcel. Gerhardson stated approximately 12-13 acres on the east side of McCulley Road and 38 acres total. The only buildable area is to the east side of McCulley Road. Out of this 13 acre area, only 4.57 acres are buildable. Because this is a 5 acre zone, there is only one buildable site and a variance would be required. There is a property owner interested in part of the area to the west of McCulley Road, not for building but protection so that it isn't bui 1 t on. Gerhardson stated that the DNR is interested in acquiring the small area designated as Parking Area on the map for Luce Line parking. This was offered to the DNR when the road was built in 1978 or 1979. At that time, Hennepin County could not take any land that had restrictions on it and the City would not allow any buildings on this property or it would revert back to the City. Apparently the DNR has changed their policy and they are now interested in this piece of property. Vongries commented that the real reason they are discussing this area is to decide if this is needed for parks. Flint responded that he did not see it as necessary. It is right on the edge of the City. Generally for a neighborhood park, a radius of about a half mile with a park in the middle is considered according to Terry. Both Baker Park and Bederwood Park are within the area. 8 . MINIITES OF THS ORONO PARR COMMISSION MEETING HELD JDNE 3, 1991 DISPOSAL OF CITY PROPERTY CONTINIIED Johnston stated that with the 5 acre zoning another park is probably not needed but the parking area should be maintained either by the DNR or the City. Gerhardson asked if this were not taken over by the DNR if the City would want this back to consider as a City parking lot for access to the Luce Line. Johnston stated that if the DRN took this over and did the maintenance there would be no reason for the City to be involved. It needs improvement to be a parking area. Johnston pointed out that 100' of right-of-way seems significant until berms are put in. The plan shows a trail going along McCulley Road at some time and the Park Commission may want to look at retaining an off-road trail next to McCulley Road, probably on the west side of McCulley Road. An additional 30' for a bike trail would make sense. A motion was made by Johnston, seconded by Vongries, that the City retain along the west side of McCulley Road a bike trail corridor of 30' in width and also either retain the parking area as City property or deed it to the DNR for the purpose of a parking lot for the Luce Line. Ayes - 5, Nays - 0. Motion passed. The second piece of property to be discussed was the Old Sewage Plant property described as being just northwest of French Lake off Old Crystal Bay Road. Gerhardson stated there is probably in excess of 20 acres at this site but only about 6 - 8 acres of dry buildable. The appraisal on this was at $275,000. Wilson described this property as a fabulous wetlands complex. The pond was used as a sewage pond for about 15 years and for the last 15 years it has been left as a pond. When it was created, the edges were bermed so that it has potential to walk around. French Lake is a very pretty wildlife lake, the pond would be to the northwest and Lake Minnetonka is close. This makes a flyway for the birds - tundra swans and diving ducks because the pond was kept at a depth where the divers would come in. French Lake attracts puddle ducks and some geese. The depth of the pond was significant to the type of wildlife attracted including beaver and pheasants. The rest of the wetlands complex is marshland. Wilson referred to a map provided by the DNR and stated that the DNR has designated this as a protected water area. Protected water means that it drains into Lake Minnetonka. If any building is done in this area, the wetlands would have to be protected and preserved according to Flint. Wilson also said anything designated as L cannot be touched. She feels this has great potential for a nature preserve in Orono. Vongries asked if this is all wetlands that can't be touched why it is valued at $275,000. Gerhardson responded that there is 6 - 8 acres of dry buildable. This property was originally bought for the sewage pond. It had been condemned by the City and then bought. It belonged to the Ellis's at one time and was bought f rom them at a very low price according to Wi 1 son. As noted on 9 , MINUTES OF THE ORONO PARR COIrIlrIISSION MEETING HBI,D JDNE 3, 1991 DISPOSAL OF CITY PROPERTY CONTINUED the map, Art Ellis still lives in the area. Wilson added the fact that the Carpenter's are in their 80's and own a lot of property in the area, part of it in a tree farm. Mrs. Lyman, also in her 80's, owns a lot of property just to the north of the Carpenter's. Wilson feels that both of those properties will be sold and subdivided in the next 10 to 15 years and the population concentration will increase in this area. This is another good reason to be cautious with this land. Johnston also pointed out the County park area which is Noerenberg Park. Johnston asked what the zoning is for the area. Gerhardson replied that it was 2 acre, unsewered. 4 lots could be established in this area if it were sewered. Flint and Wilson walked in this area. Flint noted that there is access going in and then a dike built to contain the sewer pond. A nice walk could be constructed with mowing and some crushed rock or mulch. Wilson referred to one buildable site on the south side up on a hill which is very nice but would overlook the pump station. She doesn't feel the rest of the property has much potential for building. There is no road access and to construct a road would kill the wildlife. Flint doesn't feel it is realistic to have a figure of $275,000 for one buildable site. Gerhardson pointed out 4 other possible buiding sites if sewer were installed. Wilson stated that with the potential to subdivide across the road it would be a weak choice. These appraisals were done by a private company. They look at the zoning and potential for sewer and appraise at the highest possible price. Johnston pointed out that it would seem unrealistic that the Council would approve preserving this area and pass up $275,000, if the appraisal is accurate, with the new building, etc. Vongries added that about two-thirds of this property will remain wetlands regardless of who owns it. Johnston suggested to request that the Council only sell the upland portions and then as the Carpenter property develops, require an access back into this area. The major north-south trail will be on Old Crystal Bay Road and if someone knows there would be a detour to come in through the wetland area and then back down to Noerenberg that people would use the trail. The road to the pump stations exists now and will always be there because access is required to the pump station. Vongries asked the size of the pump station. Gerhardson compared it to the Council Chambers with a cyclone fence around it. Bradley asked where the wetlands drain. Gerhardson replied that it goes south into Crystal Bay, through French Lake and County Road 51 (North Shore Drive). Johnston asked if there was a topographic map. Gerhardson was not sure but if there were it would have been done at the time the dike was built. Johnston thought a topographic for $1000 - $1200 would be beneficial and 10 _ M�NDTES OF THE ORONO PARR CO1��MISSION MEETING HELD JUNE 3, 1991 DISPOSAL OF CITY PROPERTY CONTINUED then discuss next spring. Gerhardson stated that no action was required at this meeting and everyone should go out to look at this property. Flint thought if there was time Saturday that they could look at this when they got back from the Maple Grove tour. He also felt that it would be better for the Council to deal with all of the parcels at the same time. Gerhardson stated that this is just a beginning to get members thinking and looking at these properties. Nothing needs to be done at this time. Wilson encouraged the group to think in terms of preserving "passive" or "inactive" space as wel 1 as recreational space. As Orono becomes more populated the opportunity for this type of space may not be around if the Commission is not smart enough to look ahead. She states, "This group needs to think, not only of playground equipment and bicycle trails, but preserving the character of what Orono has been. That is why a lot of people have moved out here." This is a chance to recommend to the Council that they give some thought to a nature preserve concept. There may be other sites to be considered. Flint also feels this concept makes sense and requires the preservation of wetlands, public access and parking. This may not be preserved if given to a developer. Wilson stated this will take a lot of thought and design and perhaps some lots could still be sold. Johnston asked if the City of Orono had a redevlopment program. Flint asked why that would be relevant. Johnston referred to a piece of property in Brooklyn Park acquired through a variety of sources. HRA actually went in and did the development work and they got exactly what they wanted. If Orono had an HRA, they could go do the development work and put in one or two lots, still preserve what the Commission would like to and recoup some of the costs. Then there is not a developer involvecl. Gerhardson responded that the right developer would have to be found even without an HRA. Vongries referred to Noeremberg Park, owned by the County, with the great bulk of it off limits to the public. Wilson thought the restrictions may be part of the will. Wilson suggested that they not let this property go so the Council would do something without a Park Commission recommendation. Gerhardson stated that none of these will be brought before the Council without a Park Commission recommendation. The third site is the Crystal Bay property. The value would be a net loss of about $5500. Demolition costs of the existing buildings would be about $40,000 and the land would be worth $3 5,0 0 0. Gerhardson ref erred to a document on the wa 1 1 of the 11 MINIITES OF THE ORONO PARR COMMISSION MEETING HELD JONE 3, 1991 DISPOSAL OF CITY PROPERTY CONTINDED Chambers that the Museum had done a few years earlier indicating there may be some historical value to the building the Council Chambers is in. Johnston suggested that, on the tour on Saturday, they look at the old City Hall in Maple Grove which is about 2 blocks from the new one to see what they have done to the inside of the building and how they are presently using it. Flint questioned the need for all of the property. The area south of Prospect could be used to expand the current park but there may not be a need for the rest of the property. Wilson suggested the potential for tennis courts in this area is good. There is possibly some parking space. The Commission has been talking about tennis courts and this would be an opportunity where the land would not have to be bought. Vongries stated that tennis courts could also be put in other parks currently established and return this land to the tax roles. Flint pointed out that he thought the Mayor would like to see something done with this property for the Village. Johnston asked if these 3 parcels were conforming. Gerhardson stated that this area is zoned for 2 acre residential. The total area of the lots the Chambers is located on is less than 1/2 of one buildable lot so there would not be anything to return to the tax roles. Gerhardson said the sewer has to be considered which means that you would go along with what is being done in the neighborhood. Flint pointed out that most of the houses in the area were not on 2 acre lots. Vongries further questioned the buildable areas. Gerhardson stated there would have to be variances granted. The existing homes had been grandfathered in under the 2 acre zoning which preceeds the sewer installation. No property has ever been rezoned after sewer was installed. This means the potential to have less than 2 acre lots would be very good. Vongries discussed the possibility of moving the Post Office to the Chambers building and leaving that whole parcel for a park instead of just the side along Arbor St. Johnston suggested tabling further discussion until the next meeting. He would like to get accurate measurements and have his site designer see if there was anything he could come up with for this area. As he sees it, this doesn't make a good park but it certainly doesn't make a good residential development either. Unless the City grants itself variances, this doesn't seem to be a very buildable area. Flint questioned if there were any other park property close to this location. Gerhardson said that Noerenberg was close. Flint noted that if you were using the 1/2 mile radius standard that this would be a good location for a neighborhood park. Johnston asked if there were any other possibilities of expansion to vacant property. Gerhardson did not believe there were any areas as this would continue to be residential. 12 , MINIITES OF THE ORONO PARR COMMISSION I�ETING HELD JONE 3, 1991 DISPOSAL OF CITY PROPERTY CONTINUED Flint compared this park to one around Parker's Lake where there is a small neighborhhod park in a residential area. This is an established neighborhood, it's just a matter of laying out some possibilities. Report on Trails Susan Wilson lead the discussion and referred to the information included with the minutes. This information was from two visits with Bob Hill of Minnetonka and Eric Blanke of Plymouth. Bob Hill talks about a timeframe and different people to contact. He also gave some estimates in dollars which was very close to Blanke's estimates of about $50,000 per mile. They both said the separate trails were well liked by the community. Eric Blanke was helpful in how to make decisions, different types of roads, speed and volume of traffic, connecting up locations and other issues. This material can be used for future reference. Wilson stated that she 1 iked the shoulder trai 1 s but a separate trai 1 may be something Orono may want to move into as the population grows. It is projected to be about 10 , 000 and separate , extensive trails may be questionable. Property for Sale Gerhardson pointed out thi s property i s the 1 ot to the north next to Antoine playground. The property owner sent a letter to the City asking if there was any interest in purchasing this property. The assessor has it appraised at $ 60 , 000. The existing park occupies two parcels. Flint noted that there are 2 picnic tables, a swing set, slide, climber and basketball backstop are provided. A skating rink is provided in the winter and the docks for the City are stored there in the winter. Flint questioned why more would be needed at this park. Vongries reviewed the layout of the park for other members and the area to be considered for purchase. This new area is mostly wooded and brush with some grass. He didn't think this addition would make it large enough for a ball field. He had made the recommendation to repaint the wooden park sign, upgrade the equipment and plant trees and shrubs in the existing park. Wilson questioned if clearing out some brush on the new piece would make it a pretty place to sit. Vongries noted that this is somewhat of an isolated area and would attract only people from the neighborhood. Johnston referred to the fact that this would be considered a "play lot" by Maple Grove standards. A neighborhood park would require 4-15 acres. If the parcel were added there would be enough room to add a ball/soccer field. This may be the only opportunity in that part of town except the undeveloped area of Saga Hill that offers a 4 acre parcel to have a neighborhood park. Vongries questioned if there would be 4 acres. Johnston 13 , M�NIITBS OF THE ORONO PARR COMMISSION MEETING HELD JUNE 3, 1991 PROPERTY FOR SALE CONTINDED thought it would be close. Upon further discussion, it would only be about 2 1/2 acres. Vongries talked about the fact that the nature of the park would be altered by adding ball fields. More parking would be necessary. The skating rink would be lost. Gerhardson agreed with Johnston that there would not be another opportunity in this area for such development. Vongries asked the cost of the new parcel. Gerhardson stated that he had not been given a price at this time. Bradley questioned the status of the lots to the north of this vacant lot. They have been developed according to Gerhardson. Two issues would need to be considered according to Johnston. 1) Do we need a more intensive use in that area? 2) Assuming $60,000 is a reasonable number and another $60,000 would be spent for development of parking, etc., is there enough benefit to justify spending this amount of money? Bradley added another perspective. If there is not enough money to develop it now and we let it go, we would never get it later for that amount of money. If there is a foreseeable or current need, maybe the land should be purchased and wait until further funds are available for development. He compared this to Hennepin County buying land as available and developing at a later date. � Johnston questioned the Saga Hill development and the decision by the Park Commission that at that time no land was needed there and instead opted for the fees. Johnston noted that there is about 40 acres in this undeveloped area and that 8� would give the 4 acres needed for a neighborhood park. This is near the property currently under consideration. Vongries noted that this is close to the Orono border and popu 1 ation in thi s area i s sparse. Brad 1 ey added that thi s i s close to Spring Park and there is a greater population in that area. Johnston added that Minnetrista also has 4 acres of land that has not been developed which would also be used by both Orono and Minnetrista residents. Bradley moved, Wilson seconded, that the owner be contacted to find out the price he wants for the property under consideration. Flint stated that the Park Commission really doesn't have the money. Basically, the current motion says that 25$ of the total amount of all that has been accumulated in the Park Dedication Fund for the 20 years it has been in place should be spent to buy this little sliver of land. Bradley responded that was not the intent of the motion, only to obtain a price. Flint continued by stating that there is not enough money to do everything they look at. Sooner or later money needs to be spent to do a 14 _ , M'INDTES OF THB ORONO PARR COMMISSION 1KEETING HELD JIJNE 3, 1991 PROPBRTY FOR SALE CONTINUED comprehensive plan and probably do some bonding to acquire land at reasonable prices. Vongries did not feel that a "great park" would be made by purchasing this additional piece nor would it be desireable to have a "great park" on Fagerness Point. The existing park could be upgraded. He did not feel the purchase of this piece to be necessary. Bradley reiterated that he would like to keep this matter going since only 62$ of the members were present and find out how much money is wanted for that piece of property. The motion made by Bradley, seconded by Wilson, was to find out how much money the present owner wants for the property under consideration. Ayes - 3, Nays - Flint, Abstain - Vongries. Motion passed. Parks Maintenance Budget This was requested for information. This is the 1991 budget that was recommended to Council. This money is out of the General Fund, not the Park Dedication Fund. Gerhardson confirmed that the total was $50,000. He added that as the parks are used more, they demand better service. The normal rain this year has also increased maintenance needs. Johnston asked if there was any potential savings to having one maintenace crew for all area parks including Spring Park, Minnetonka Beach and Long Lake. Gerhardson agreed that there would be. Adjournment A motion was made by Bradley, seconded by Vongries, to adjourn the meeting. All voted aye. Motion carried, and at 9: 49 p.m., the meeting adjourned. � � - L�c.- Richard Flint, Chair Person 15